grades at rocks and ropes

this thread isn't exactly what it sounds like--i didn't start this thread to bitch about how stiff i think the grades are. i started it to propose something and get other people's thoughts on it. i couldn't find a way to email or message rocks and ropes directly so i thought i would post here instead.

i really don't mind the fact that an average rocks and ropes grade is stiffer than mount lemmon--a grade is just a way to tell people how hard the route is before they get on it. what i do mind is that a 5.8 put up by one routesetter could be as hard as a 5.9+ put up by another routesetter, and it's confusing and frustrating.

so, while i really couldn't care less if a 5.9 at rocks and ropes equated to a 5.11 out on mount lemmon, i would however really like to see some consistency. couldn't one routesetter be the designated grader, and this person's word is law on the grades? it doesn't matter if this person grades soft or stiff because all the grades would be fairly consistent.

i'm pretty sure all this discussion will fall on deaf ears anyway and nothing will change but does anyone have any thoughts on the subject? do other gyms ever do this? i've only been to 2 other gyms but they both seemed more consistent with their grades than rocks and ropes. thoughts?

I like the system where route setter posts a card with grade range, for example if they feel it is 5.9, the card shows 5.8, 5.9, and 5.10. Then climbers climb the route and put a mark next to the appropriate grade. After there is some consensus, typically a few days, the final grade is applied. This seems to work quite well at the gyms I climb at.

Jon Ruland wrote: couldn't one routesetter be the designated grader, and this person's word is law on the grades?s?

Given that grades are a consensus rating, no. The ratings are established by an average of peoples' opinions of the difficulty. Sure, a good head setter will climb stuff to make sure its not blatantly off and make adjustments occasionally, but if their is one person setting the ratings, they will sandbag climbs that play into their strengths and make the ones that don't soft.

When you say that the grades aren't consistent setter to setter, is this your opinion or a commonly held one? If its just yours, consider that one setter likely sets climbs in your style and the other does not. If its commonly held, yeah, the ratings are probably inconsistent.

In the end, gym grades are just numbers that are most commonly used to stroke egos and thump chests. I worked at a gym that got so many arm chair graders giving us their opinions of what we did wrong by not adding a + or - that we just went with "easy" "medium" "hard".

So, its not falling on deaf ears, but I've got to wonder why it gets your undies in a bunch. Gyms are where you want to meet and exceed you climbing limits, so just focus on climbing the best possible.

Evan

Hey Jon,

I'm the head route setter @ Rocks and Ropes and I hope that I can help you with this issue.

1) If you have a problem that you can give specifics on (i.e. red 7+ vs pink 8-), maybe I can discuss the intent of the setters in question. You can reach me @ greg@rocksandropes.com (or just pm me).

2) As Jerek mentioned we do use a "You Grade It" system where climbers have the ability to vote for the grade that they feel the route deserves. We take these suggestions to heart and generally average out these rating recomendations to achieve a final grade.

3) How often do you climb in the gym? Perhaps this venue of climbing offers some different realms of movement that you are not used to on your usual outdoor climbing ventures ( I'm a big proponant of the idea that indoor and outdoor climbing are two different beasts).

Please, if there is any way that I can help you let me know.

Greg Rupp

P.S. you can contact us anytime @ rocksandropes.com.

P.P.S what are the other gyms that you have been to?

I hear you. Every time I focus on grades I get pissed too. Now I try to focus on the colored tape, I am still pissed.

I think that different setters have different styles. If Gregg sets a route know that it is going to be reachy with some high steps, and probably at least one "trick" move for you to figure out. If Shaun set the route it will be one boulder problem after another. If you spend a little time rehersing the climbs and figuering out the intended moves they are pretty close to the grade in my opinion.

Heh. I had my own gym thread you can feel free to look up on your own (too lazy to link it). Different subject though. Mine became quite the inferno, a veritable study in customer relations gone wrong, so I'd like to point out that your routesetter is handling your critique pretty professionally. Props to that.

As far grades go, you just need to get over it. There are a variety of reasons why grades aren't often well consolidated in the gym setting. Does a route that will be up for a couple of months tops really merit the worrying about it though?

oh my gawd! a GYM GRADES THREAD!! EVERYBODY PANIC!!!1

jarek and grupp, i do like the "you grade it" system. grupp, how many routes is this policy usually in place for on a percentage basis? is it most routes or just some? i climb at rocks and ropes about twice a week and it seems like the "you grade it" system seems to phase in and out every couple weeks--sometimes there will be lots of new routes with the marker and grade range and sometimes new routes will just appear with a grade already established.

to answer your question, i've climbed at a gym in reno and a gym in michigan. though there was some variation in the grades they both seemed more consistent than rocks and ropes, though i don't think they set as many routes as you guys do. and to be honest, even though the michigan gym had much bigger walls i still think the routes at rocks and ropes are the best of the 3. it would just be nice if this impressive portfolio of routes had more consistency.

i find it very strange that whenever this subject comes up people seem to think the poster is "pissed" or "upset" with the gym. i am not either of those things, i just see room for improvement with an already good gym and i am simply trying to start the conversation on how to get that improvement done. also i was bored at work one fateful afternoon.

GYM THREAD

+1 Caughtinside

What would Don Buland say to a thread like this? Nothing, he would look away with a bemused smirk!

Gotta give Greg credit for responding so quick.

Interesting topic and it looks like it comes up one in a while :)

I had a very similar discussion with my partner at the gym last night. I climb at BRG in Woburn, MA and there a 5.10s difficulty can range between 5.9- and 5.11c/d. While it is frustrating, it is simply the product of not having a consensus rating for the climbs like you tend to get outdoors where routes don’t change that often and get climbed by many more climbers.

In the end, you should see the gym rating as something that tells you if the climb is worth your time and use your outdoor performance to assess the actual level that you are climbing at.

Its absurd to apply the outside YDS grades to plastic, period. All gyms use the same variation of holds, therefore it should not be all that difficult to devise a gym/plastic rating system, even if it just piggybacks on the V-scale. The way route setters travel and their knowledge of plastic would develop a fairly consistent system. As it stands, the YDS ratings just lend themselves to eye rolling.

Anyway, the real question is if your gym has level 2 routesetting or not.

There is no excuse for a gym ratings thread.

EVER

@ Jon,

I didn't think that you were angry with the gym at all!! Comments like yours give me the chance to stay on top of what will always be an ongoing issue in any setting program.

The "You Grade It" system is applied to all new routes that go up. The cards stay up for 2-3 days (maybe a bit longer for more difficult routes), and then get replaced by the route tag. However, 2 weeks ago we had our youth team tryouts an the setters put up 20 new routes in 2 days. These routes we simply tagged for the kids.

I would still like to address specific routes that are at issue. Please let me know which routes have the greatest disparity to you so that I can consider a course of action that will help our setting team become more adept at setting for everyone.

@Mike,

I agree that indoor and outdoor ratings are different animals altogether, but, pighgybacking on the YDS scale allows for some general sense of difficulty transferance.

@Zeke,

The USAC Routesetters level system is a measure ability and experience in the realm of national competition setting, allowing them to staff their events with appropriately trained and skilled setters. To answer your question (although I'm sure you are kidding around), yes, our setting staff sports a level 2 setter as well as a level 4 national chief.

Thanks for all of the comments, I'm here to make the gym climbing experience as fulfilling as I can.

Greg

Rik wrote:I think that different setters have different styles. If Gregg sets a route know that it is going to be reachy with some high steps, and probably at least one "trick" move for you to figure out. If Shaun set the route it will be one boulder problem after another. If you spend a little time rehersing the climbs and figuering out the intended moves they are pretty close to the grade in my opinion.

To some extent, I agree with Rik. For me, it's almost more useful at R&R to have the routesetter's initials on a route that it is to have the grade. Can we go back to having these on each route?

If it's a Greg route, it'll be reachy, and it'll have some "trick" to it, but it'll always be doable at whatever grade is posted, once you've figured out the trick. I'd be perfectly happy to have Greg set all of the routes at R&R - his setting style just works for me.

If it's a Sean route, it will be bouldery, shouldery, and too much for lil ol' me, regardless of the grade. I rarely even get on his routes, even if they're well within my range.

If it's got Dustin's initials on it, it could go either way - he seems to have less of a defined "style" than some, which gives me a bit of hope that I might get up his routes.

Is this a silly discussion? Perhaps. Have you got anything better to do right now? I know I don't, or I wouldn't be responding to this. :)

Do gym grades count in the greater scheme of things? No.

Do they make a huge difference to the 5.10-5.12 climbers? No.

However, I watch and climb with a lot of folks who are new to climbing - it seems to me that these folks are the bread and butter of a place like R&R. They can get pretty discouraged when they can't get up a 5.7 route that incorporates moves that stump 5.9 climbers. Particularly when they've already climbed all of the other 5.7s in the gym with a certain level of success.

These same folks often can't tell when they're about to sustain an injury from struggling to get up a 5.7 route with crimpers and/or two-finger pockets. They'll get on a route they've got no business climbing at their current experience and fitness level because it says it's a 5.7, just like all those other 5.7s they climbed.

If those new folks get discouraged and/or injured in their first month of membership, they are unlikely to give R&R any more of their money via membership, classes, and guided climbs.

On a positive note: I started back climbing at R&R a few weeks ago after about six months off. The gym grades now seem a lot closer to "outside" grades than they ever did before. I'm also having more fun at the gym than I did before, for whatever nebulous reason.

There are still some inconsistencies, which I'll be glad to help point out when I see them. Here's one: The orange 5.7 on the "buttress" between the autobelays and the lead cave.

GRupp wrote:@ Jon, I didn't think that you were angry with the gym at all!! Comments like yours give me the chance to stay on top of what will always be an ongoing issue in any setting program. The "You Grade It" system is applied to all new routes that go up. The cards stay up for 2-3 days (maybe a bit longer for more difficult routes), and then get replaced by the route tag. However, 2 weeks ago we had our youth team tryouts an the setters put up 20 new routes in 2 days. These routes we simply tagged for the kids. I would still like to address specific routes that are at issue. Please let me know which routes have the greatest disparity to you so that I can consider a course of action that will help our setting team become more adept at setting for everyone. @Mike, I agree that indoor and outdoor ratings are different animals altogether, but, pighgybacking on the YDS scale allows for some general sense of difficulty transferance. @Zeke, The USAC Routesetters level system is a measure ability and experience in the realm of national competition setting, allowing them to staff their events with appropriately trained and skilled setters. To answer your question (although I'm sure you are kidding around), yes, our setting staff sports a level 2 setter as well as a level 4 national chief. Thanks for all of the comments, I'm here to make the gym climbing experience as fulfilling as I can. Greg

i do appreciate the quick responses greg! with the "i'm not angry" comment i was referring to other people in the thread. it didn't seem like you were taking my comment as anger.

that's awesome that you are going with the "you grade it" system for all new routes. as for the youth tryouts, i can understand that putting up a bunch of routes in a short period of time for a specific event probably wouldn't be feasible to have everyone grade it.

as for specifics, a few routes that spring immediately to mind may have been taken down recently but there were 2 10bs on the right overhanging wall and a 10c on the arete on the very overhanging featured wall to the left (as you come in the door) that were each significantly harder than the 10d on the right overhanging wall. this sentiment was shared by a number people i climbed with over a couple weeks, who shall remain nameless since i doubt they would want their names being used as references in a shameless "gym grades thread" (the horror!). there was also a 10c in the cave (not the lead cave but just to the left of it) that was described by a very strong climber as "harder than sentenced to hang" (5.12 at prison camp). i believe this one is gone now too.

i'll be at the gym tonight and i'll post back here if anything stands out to me. though i don't think my personal opinion about a specific route or 2 is all that important (at least, no more important than anyone else's). i just wanted to start this discussion and hear what people have to say. i think it's very cool that the "you grade it" system is being used so extensively now.

again, thanks for the quick responses. it shows you really do listen to feedback.

Mike Anderson wrote:There is no excuse for a gym ratings thread. EVER

agreed. nor is there ever any excuse for posting in a gym grades thread.

1Eric Rhicard wrote:GYM THREAD +1 Caughtinside What would Don Buland say to a thread like this? Nothing, he would look away with a bemused smirk! Gotta give Greg credit for responding so quick.

actually don buland sneaks in through the air ducts and solos every route in the gym once every month or two, but he tells me everything below 5.14 feels pretty much the same to him.

Your gym has level friggin' 4!!?? What you are you complaining about Ruland?!

Awe I miss RnR... I always thought grades there were softer than Lemmon... I've climbed several 12's and onsighted nearly many 11's in RnR when I was in my prime, but could barely onsight 11's outdoors and only redpointed a single 12a (after MUCH work). If nothing else I found them to be pretty fair.

Gym ratings are definitely more problematic than outdoor ones (if only because you don't get a consensus). However, in general, the ratings could be better if the routesetters were just honest about how it feels and maybe got a couple of opinions of stronger and weaker climbers (and changed the grades over time as more people climbed them). It would be nice to have a current route listing where people could give their opinions of quality and difficulty.

If it is +/- a number grade for 5.9 and below and +/- a couple letter grades for 5.10 and above, that's pretty damn accurate for a gym. It will always be problematic when you have outdoor 5.12 leaders setting 5.9 and below in the gym. In general climbing only 5.9 and below whether outdoors or in a gym it is pretty much a crapshoot as to how accurate the rating will be.

Zeke wrote:Your gym has level friggin' 4!!?? What you are you complaining about Ruland?!

thanks for asking, zeke. the subject of this thread is the difference in difficulty between routes which are graded the same or almost the same. the routes themselves are of the highest quality i have yet seen in a gym and the difficulty of the climbs compared to the difficulty of routes outdoors is irrelevant, lest there be any confusion on this matter.