St. Vrain Canyon guidebook...

Does anyone else think this thing blows? Approach times, approach routes, mile markers, routes.

the new one, or the old one?
well, the new one i cant tell you about.....( i wont buy it because of the authors climbing/bolting/route setting ethics/lack or respect and common sense)

the old one (falcon) is pretty good i thought for the area.
as someone who learned to climb there,i think if you look around while driving, you should be able to guesstimate....most approaches are not too bad, although watch out for poison ivy...that stuff can be anywhere/everywhere....

have fun up there and go do it all....its worth it!!!

I haven't had any trouble with it. So far it's been accurate and gotten me where I wanted to be on the lines I expected. I am curious to hear where/what in particular you've had trouble with. (?)

You guys are crazy. The Gillett guidebook is one of the better guidebooks out there.

the december wall is a perfect example of what im talking about. bolts next to cracks and other obvious gear placements.

putting in a rap route when you can just walk off in a few mins and be back at the start of all the routes.

i believe i made a post about this on the december wall comments list...

i have been a couple of other places in the svv where bolts were put in that didnt need to be there.....plus he mentions a route called brothers gotta hug but gives no details.......he put a sport route on/next to it!

i feel like this guy just did whatever he wanted so he could print a book....a horrible book at that.... maybe gillete can comment on this issue ....i know the people i learned to climb with were not happy about this guys ethics.....totally disrespectful

By George K. Watson
From: Nederland, CO
Jul 8, 2010

When I first climbed this in the late '80s, there were no bolts placed/in place anywhere in the vicinity.
I did this with Norman Boles, and though it appears as though many of the natural routes in this area may have been previously done, we initially claimed it.

We originally called it 'Ranklands of Perfidy' and since we are in general, using the names myself and my partners gave to these various little lines, it should probably be corrected.

I did install a rap route on the crag at one point, but these are the only bolts myself and my partners ever drilled here. Everything else was added later.

a couple comments, ie my .02

rick, the directions assume that a person has some level of experience in off-the-beaten-path hiking. most of the walls in the SSV haven't been blessed with wheelchair accessable trails. honestly, i've climbed at almost every wall listed in the book. i haven't really had much trouble with the directions. i think bernard's approach times are 'optimistic', but i generally don't try to speed hike to the crag.

regarding the bolting. i would say that most of the questionable bolting i have seen has been on routes put up my alvino pon and crew. also, all of the chipped routes i have been on were pon routes. the bolted rap anchors that bernard and others have installed haven't detracted from my experience in the least. usually they save me from wasting my time climbing some low 5th class garbage pitch, or from schwacking down some mungy descent. i like to go climbing, not hiking.

from george's comment, i can't tell if he is upset that bolts were placed near/on his route, or the entire wall, etc. if they did the route, but never really reported it, it isn't a big surprise that somebody else would come along and add bolts thinking they were doing an FA. it just isn't the 1970's anymore.

another note; craig lightburn and mason frichett climbed most, if not all, of the obvious gear lines on december wall int eh 70's, so i doubt george was putting up an FA if it was the late 80's.

yet another note: jon vandub complains about people bolting rap routes, and then points out that he (or george, who he quotes, can't tell if george's quotwe was finished) bolted one himself? really???

the only thing i can say to that slim, is its not the 70's anymore but that doesnt mean that ethics have died.....Dont use good or better judgement... use THE BEST judgement!!

and i feel that a bolt next to a crack is very poor judgement....and for you to respond with " haven't detracted from my experience in the least." shows your ethics as well..you can pick at what I typed, but you cant ignore the FACTS i have presented.

where are the bolts next to cracks up there, other than bolted rap anchors? the routes that i am familiar with (again, excluding pon's abortions) have bolts for face protection and require gear for crack protection. your "FACTS" are pretty general, do you work as a psychic part time? i'm pretty sure that people who know me and climb with me would say that my ethics are at least "OK", but thanks for worrying anyway.

:) you're welcome!

Rich Schreckengost wrote: Yes, that one. Freaking HORRIBLE!

How much have you contributed to CO climbing lately? If you have an issue with the guide email Bernard - he is an active contributor to this site, so I don't think he would mind taking the time to clarify any confusing approaches, descriptions etc.

Try not and belittle someone's hard work in a public forum.

jon vandub wrote::) you're welcome!

Dude you didn't answer his question. What cracks have bolts next to them? You have presented one guys assertion that he climbed a "retro-bolted" route 40 years ago, but didn't report the FA, as proof that Bernard has no ethics.

I haven't used the SSV guidebook, but I have both his Estes Park Valley GB and High Peaks GB and they are both totally accurate. I doubt the SSV would be any different.

Wow, what a shit show.
But no specifics yet, other than that there was an assertion that Bernard accidentally bolted a previously unreported line. I wonder if it is true?
I'd almost come to the conclusion that someone was upset with Bernard and just trying to get at him somehow if I didn't know him well enough to make that such a head-scratcher. I just can't see Bernard upsetting anyone who'd actually met him.
As a guy who has pretty old-school ethics (I've never placed a bolt, but I've pulled some off of a crack climb before) I also have not yet encountered a Gillett route that I have a problem with.
That's why I am so curious to hear specifics.

not trying to bash the guy (never my intention)...
i climbed at this place before he started bolting

go to the december wall and do a few climbs....thats all i need to say.

Well, I've never climbed at December Wall, so perhaps that accounts for some different percpetion. FWIW, I did note that on one bolted route (Red Tag) I know Bernard did the FA of with Roger Briggs, that he didn't place the bolts on it and made that clear. I don't think Briggs was known for his lack of ethics either...
Anyway, maybe some day I'll get around to that crag. I've been to a dozen others and haven't had a problem so far.

Tony B wrote:Wow, what a shit show. But no specifics yet, other than that there was an assertion that Bernard accidentally bolted a previously unreported line.

But Tony, everyone should know and respect unreported trad lines. I mean, especially when they are discontinuous. And vague. And the FAist is secretive and doesn't want anyone to climb the route. That's reasonable, right?

But yeah, I hate that Gillette guy, too. I mean he charges an arm and a leg for those razor blade refills. F that guy.

a lot of the bolted routes at december wall weren't put up by gilette. several people have put up lines there. i have done most of them and still can't think of any that had bolts next to cracks (again, other than rap anchors).

The Gillette St Vrain guidebook is excellent.

Hello Rich S: I'm sorry to hear you've had a difficult time making good use of my St Vrain guide. Click on my name and email me through this site, and I'll send you my mailing address. You may mail your guide book to me (please include your mailing address), and I'll send you a check for $32 (retail price of the book, not including taxes and cost to mail the book to me, but I figure you can meet me half way on this deal).

Jon Vandub, if Rich takes me up on my offer, I am willing to mail his book to you; I'll also need your mailing address. If he wants to keep his book, I could still mail you a free book. With my book in your hands, you'd be able to tell me very specifically those bolts that are offensive to you, and I might be able to better respond to your complaints.

Regarding those complaints that have at this point been addressed, I can say only that I'm very puzzled. I'll try to respond to a few of them in as gracious a manner as I can; I don't want to take the time to defend everything in my guide.

APPROACH TIMES. I'll admit that the approach times may be quick for someone walking into the canyon for the first time trying to figure out how to get to a crag. The approach "trails" to most of the crags are not at all well-established, and my experience is that it takes a few trips to a particular crag before you've dialed a good approach. Further, it is the case that I like to hike fast. That said, I added a few minutes to my approach times to account for the fact that most people probably don't hike in as fast as I do. I timed my approaches with a watch several times over for nearly all the crags in the book. Just to give you an example: I've been climbing at Dec. Wall a lot this spring, and I often do so with a stop watch. On June 4, for example, I got to the base in 11 min., and I made it to the top of the wall in just under 20 minutes (I walked around the back side to the anchors atop Life After James, and then proceeded to top rope solo ten laps on the wall for 2000 ft of training). That wasn't a particularly fast hike for me as I was tired that afternoon. On May 20 I made it to the base of the wall in 8 minutes, and the top in 16 minutes (that day I rope soloed 1800 ft; had to stop when a brief rain storm spoiled my fun). I'm noticing that the approach time I list for Dec. Wall is 15 minutes. If I can make it to the base in 8 minutes (yes, charging up the hill to get a workout, though I've got both the rack and the rope instead of split between two people), I don't think it's unreasonable to expect other climbers, most of whom are reasonably fit, to make it to the base in 15 minutes. If you find it takes you more time, it's pretty easy to adjust my times to better fit your own experience. You might even create a linear regression model so that you've got a nice formula that will help you in future visits. I can help you with this formula if you supply the data -- I'll need your approach times to various crags listed in the guide.

MILE MARKERS. ??? Rich, I'm not responsible for the installation or maintenance of the mile markers; I believe those fall under the purview of the CO DOT. I measured distances in the canyon with my car's odometer so many times it's not even funny; I believe the data published in the book are pretty accurate for my car. You may need to tweak things a bit for the vehicle of your choice.

PHOTOS. Rich, I see you've expressed your opinion about the photos in the book over on the St Vrain page. Is it the action photos that disturb you? Maybe too many pictures of my kids? Out of focus (I'm not a professional photographer)? Or are the crag photos difficult to decipher? I can assure you that the photos are correctly labeled and that the route overlay lines are in the correct position (recognizing that a 5 x 8 photo printed at 400 dpi with 1-pt width dashed lines does give some room for error in terms of the EXACT route up the wall). I think I climbed something like 93% or 95% of the South St Vrain Canyon routes listed in my guide, and close to that for the N St Vrain routes (I don't recall the exact NSV percentage, but I climbed the vast majority of them), and maybe 50% of the boulder problems that are actually listed (I don't really like bouldering). I guess this comment also addresses your plea for "better research." It took me seven years to write that guide (mostly because I kept finding new routes to do), far longer than any other guide I've written. Should I have taken 8 years? If I had to guess, there are no more than a handful of humans on the face of this planet who have spent as much time as I have climbing in S St Vrain. I was climbing there twice a day (before and after work) in the frenzied days of getting the guide finished. It's the nearest climbing area to my house, and I routinely go out and rope solo thousands of feet in that canyon every year (every visit on the good days, as detailed above). One summer and into fall I was climbing there with another buddy of mine (also a family man) in the dark with headlamps because it was the only way we could squeeze climbing time into our busy schedules. I know I didn't get all the FA info correct -- I admitted as much in the preface to the guide -- but it was very difficult to find accurate information from the earlier years. I reached out to Jeff Lowe, for example, and offered to send my rough draft to him, but he declined as he was ill and had plenty of other things to do. I dropped the ball with George Bracksieck (he has climbed in the St Vrain since the 1970s, and I wish I would have taken advantage to interview him more extensively). He and I had a couple personal exchanges, and I wanted to visit him at his house, but the rest of life (wife and 5 kids, job, etc.) crowded it out. I'll try to do better next edition.

That should be plenty of information for you to make better informed opinions about the merits of my guidebook. See top paragraph if you still think my guide blows; the offer still stands.

Jon Vandub -- I'm equally puzzled by your comments. Take Brothers Gotta Hug, for example. You say I give no details regarding that line. I'm looking at p. 82 of my guide and see that I give a full description of the route; it's also marked in full on the topo on p. 80. Oh, wait, you don't have my guide so you can't verify these facts, can you? Please see the second paragraph of this post -- my offer still stands. I got the information about Brothers Gotta Hug from two fellows named Robert and Patrick Dezonia, who claim to have made its first ascent (for the record, I have no reason to doubt their claim; I just want you to know who I got the info from). I met Rob and Patrick at the base of December Wall one day, and they pointed out their line. It's possible I goofed up the description. Perhaps Rob can weigh in and correct any mistakes I've made as he's a member of this site. I know they were displeased with the bolts on Life After James (they told me so as we talked at the base), but that route and its bolts aren't mine.

RAPPEL ROUTES. Jon, I installed belay/rappel anchors for a few of the routes at Dec. Wall (A Long December, Moonstruck, and Nocturne in the book; I also installed a rappel anchor for a pair of new routes that are on this site but not in the guide). All the other routes I put up used existing bolted belay anchors installed by other people, or have no bolts at all. It probably looks like I had something to do with the bolts on Telegraph Road (and I did, peripherally), but that was Matt Juth's route from the beginning. I just happened to have been at the wall on the day he was completing the bolting of that route, and we did the FA together. I helped him install the protection bolts on the first pitch. All of the routes at Dec. Wall where I played a major part in the FA are naturally protected or a mixture of bolts and gear, because I try to avoid placing bolts next to good cracks (I'm willing to violate that general principle in certain circumstances when, in my opinion, bolts are the more logical option). I'd appreciate it if you took the time to tell me EXACTLY which bolts are most offensive to you, and then I can come to a better understanding of your stance. I can send you a guide and you can circle the offending bolts, and we can go from there. I think you may find that the bolts you and Rob/Patrick (friends of yours?) don't like were not placed by me.

Shumin, if one of my students flunked a math class, I couldn't discuss it because of FERPA regulations (Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act). In fact, for those students who desire even more privacy, I can't even divulge whether they are enrolled in my class or at the university. So we'll have to continue to speculate about such details. But that's what this thread is all about anyway; I commend you for your fine post.

JohnL, how the hell are you? Where the hell are you? "A van down by the river" isn't doing it for me. Send me an email and let me know how you've been (same old story for me, so just read one of my emails from a year or so ago; not much new to report on my end).

To everyone else: thanks for purchasing my guide and for your encouraging comments on the guide, both here and elsewhere. I appreciate it.

Rich and Jon, thanks, too for your comments and opinions. I can write a better guide and become a more responsible user of my bolt gun when I respond in a positive way to constructive criticism. I'll respond better if you base your observations on fact, so I'd appreciate it if you both do a little additional research and then come to me with suggestions. Rich, I think you may benefit from a few more visits to the canyon, and Jon, I think you may benefit from a thorough review of the bolts that I placed and those placed by others (at Dec. Wall in particular, though we can open the discussion to other areas if you wish).

Thanks,

Bernard

Mr. Schreckengost,

What gives? Tell us a more detailed account.

I am not a regular Vrain climber, but have been out to the
canyon many times. Not one time was the mileage, approach,
or route(s) listed wrong.

Bernard is a real nice guy, and will get back to folks in a timely
manner. I had some questions about a possible FA, and placing bolts.
He really helped me make sure I was not infringing on any other routes, as well as making sure it was not done. Even know it was not listed in the guide. Oh, and by the way it was at the December wall!

Now about the trails. As Slim had mentioned, the area is not all
that traveled. Some crags are new(er), and do not have a very worn in trail. You also then have the lost climbers hiking where ever the hell / all over looking for the crag. All because they missed the main (faint / new) trail. Then you have the other lost climbers following this new lost climbers trail to no where. etc. etc.

Cor

Tony B wrote:I'd almost come to the conclusion that someone was upset with Bernard and just trying to get at him somehow if I didn't know him well enough to make that such a head-scratcher. I just can't see Bernard upsetting anyone who'd actually met him.

and then

Bernard Gillett wrote: Rich and Jon, thanks, too for your comments and opinions. I can write a better guide and become a more responsible user of my bolt gun when I respond in a positive way to constructive criticism. I'll respond better if you base your observations on fact, so I'd appreciate it if you both do a little additional research and then come to me with suggestions. Rich, I think you may benefit from a few more visits to the canyon, and Jon, I think you may benefit from a thorough review of the bolts that I placed and those placed by others

Well,
I'm just sayin'...

I could have predicted that. So if you were looking for a flame war, I doubt this is the place to be looking. I just can't see Bernard responding in any other way other than he did.

I think most guidebook authors and FA parties understand that you can't make everyone happy and that taking the lead in any project, be it a climb or book opens the door to criticism. And that's fine. I don't mind that people criticize me or my friends. But it's always best when it's kept factual and detailed.

And I think Bernard does a better than average job of asking for that without getting personal, and the most mature response is to keep it on that level. Nobody owes it to him to agree with what he has to say, but I think some civility would befit us all. Otherwise a guy being that nice in response to this is just going the critics look bad.