Sometimes it's OK to sew it up.

Andy Novak wrote: Sick! You came within inches of breaking both your legs! Awesome! Hey everyone, look at me! I climbed at the Creek after it rained all day and almost died! Look at my RAD video! SICK BRO!

Forgive my egoism. Though if something like this happened, I'm happy to have it on film so others can see where I went wrong.
Also, I might refer you to rule #1.

BASE 1361 wrote: Jesus. This like tennis. A sport that goes nowhere.

Well put.

Fat Dad wrote: This falls into the category of things that people may not know, but should know. Do you know if that sling you found is any good? Maybe. But should you use it? No.

I don't understand the analogy.

I've said this all before in another thread, but I'll say it again anyway: rain isn't a big deal where I climb and since it really is a major concern with sandstone don't you think Swain could have elaborated a bit more than "Do not climb on wet sandstone. The rock becomes brittle and typically needs 24 hours to dry".

Not much of a warning, eh?

Listen, I'm not looking for a fight, but the bottom line is that the routes are a community resource that require a certain degree of stewardship to protect. And like it or not, educating the user group is the going to be the most effective solution.

Ryan Kelly wrote: I was under the impression that was so you didn't break off holds. I'm sure it decreases the friction but doesn't necessarily make it so you can't place sound gear. I know plenty of people who have climbed on the softer Windgate sandstone in Indian Creek while it was raining. The usual argument is 'There aren't any holds to break'.

Maybe you don't climb at RR so you don't break holds, but you don't climb desert sandstone (specifically Indian Creek) when it's wet because it makes the gear very unsafe. If the rock is wet, it is softer, and if it's softer the gear will come out easier. When you find a stuck cam (or get one stuck yourself) just haul up a bottle of water and you'll get it out.

The people you know in IC that are climbing in the rain are endangering themselves as well as causing damage to the sandstone. Just because they aren't snapping off holds doesn't mean they aren't changing the climb.

Personally I'm glad Kurt posted the video and despite all the shit being hurled around in this thread it has been very educational for me. I watched the video and assumed the placements were poor, without considering that sandstone that appeared dry would likely still be compromised. Like everyone else, I knew that climbing on wet sandstone is a no-no, but I have not previously been educated by those more experienced sandstone climbers (seen here in this thread) who seem to be saying here that several days of dry conditions are preferable for the stone to dry out.

So thanks, I'll be more cautious in the future.

Ryan Kelly wrote: I know plenty of people who have climbed on the softer Windgate sandstone in Indian Creek while it was raining. The usual argument is 'There aren't any holds to break'.

Sorry RyRy, but the wrongometer is going off the charts on this one. I have heard people at Red Rocks talk about staying off wet routes because of holds breaking, but I've never heard people at The Creek justify climbing after rain there due to its lack of face holds.

Personally, the crew I climbed with there and I stayed off routes for 1-2 days after heavy rainstorms (I'm talking about sustained spring storms, not the sporadic late summer afternoon monsoons). Sometimes we would fudge on the rules, and climb handcracks in which the gear had less chance of tracking out, and we had less chance of falling.

Another thing to keep in mind, after heavy rainstorms, is that cracks which originate on the mesa top and act as drainages (Supercrack, Generic Crack) might be more suspect than cracks that end on a blank face, or under a roof (Fatted Calf, Swedin Ringle). I remember being stuck in a hail storm at the base of Generic Crack, and probably 100 gallons of hailstones poured out of the base of the crack, slot machine style!

camhead wrote:...but I've never heard people at The Creek justify climbing after rain there due to its lack of face holds.

camhead wrote: Sometimes we would fudge on the rules, and climb handcracks in which the gear had less chance of tracking out, and we had less chance of falling.

Conor Byrne wrote:in the spirit of looking at ways to learn from this, it looks like your waist is right about at the top piece just prior to the fall. while placements, prior rain, etc... all contribute to how big a fall is, id like to point out how far back your belayer is standing. in a routine fall from a waist height piece, the fall should not be too big. after watching this, and seeing how far you fell before the belay device really started doing the work, id assume that there was a bit of slack in the system. add this to how far back the belayer is standing (needless slack that the belayers weight is unable to account for) and you give your self a pretty big fall onto a waist height or mid thigh height piece.

I would have to disagree. I think the belayer did a pretty decent job. It appears he was standing only about one step away from directly under the first piece. I don't see any excessive slack in the system and there wasn't much force applied to that top cam before it popped... the belayer was still taking in an armful of slack (all the slack there appeared to be) when it popped. The belay device wasn't "doing the work" because the first piece had already popped and he was falling past the second and third pieces when the device began to kick in... then the second piece ripped. At least that's what I am seeing after review.

I can't make out a great deal of detail about the belayer in the video but he did keep his climber off the ground, good enough.

kachoong wrote: I would have to disagree. I think the belayer did a pretty decent job. It appears he was standing only about one step away from directly under the first piece. I don't see any excessive slack in the system and there wasn't much force applied to that top cam before it popped... the belayer was still taking in an armful of slack (all the slack there appeared to be) when it popped. The belay device wasn't "doing the work" because the first piece had already popped and he was falling past the second and third pieces when the device began to kick in... then the second piece ripped. At least that's what I am seeing after review.

agreed .... if the piece was just above the harness ... even with some slack it shouldnt have been much more than a loose top rope fall ...

im really surprised that the piece didnt hold if it was above waist level

kachoong wrote: I would have to disagree. I think the belayer did a pretty decent job.

I agree with your disagreement. I very possibly could have decked without the skill of this Canadian hard-man.

Three words.

Metolius Fat Cams.

Kurt Ross wrote: I agree with your disagreement. I very possibly could have decked without the skill of this Canadian hard-man.

You were about to land on his head and he hung on. He gets mad props from me.

Kurt Ross wrote: I agree with your disagreement. I very possibly could have decked without the skill of this Canadian hard-man.

totally. If you look carefully you notice he actually reacts and falls backwards to try and take in slack after the first piece pops. Very good belay.

Climb as much sandstone as possible ASAP because hordes of climbers who think they know better, or straight up don't know, are ruining climbs by climbing on them before they are truly dry enough.

Too many people don't realize how poruous some sandstone can be. It may be bone dry to the touch, but it's sure as hell isn't dry a few millimetres deeper in!

Also, I get the sense that, when it comes to how long one should wait to climb on sandstone after it rains, people hear stupidly low estimates, like "1 day and it's good" and they go with that despite all the evidence and seasoned experienced advice to the contrary because that's what they want to believe.

Khoi wrote:NOTE TO SELF: Climb as much sandstone as possible ASAP because hordes of climbers who think they know better, or straight up don't know, are ruining climbs by climbing on them before they are truly dry enough. Too many people don't realize how poruous some sandstone can be. It may be bone dry to the touch, but it's sure as hell isn't dry a few millimetres deeper in! Also, I get the sense that, when it comes to how long one should wait to climb on sandstone after it rains, people hear stupidly low estimates, like "1 day and it's good" and they go with that despite all the evidence and seasoned experienced advice to the contrary because that's what they want to believe.

Why not share your keen wisdom before anyone else ruins it for you instead of just being a pissant?

Khoi wrote: It may be bone dry to the touch, but it's sure as hell isn't dry a few millimetres deeper in!

That's what she said.

bazzam!

take that canuck

all I'm saying is tape in the desert is aid right? that's probably why the pieces failed

About two decades late. The popularity of the desert has EXPLODED. There are paved parking lots at Indian Creek.

Khoi wrote:NOTE TO SELF: Climb as much sandstone as possible ASAP because hordes of climbers who think they know better, or straight up don't know, are ruining climbs by climbing on them before they are truly dry enough. Too many people don't realize how poruous some sandstone can be. It may be bone dry to the touch, but it's sure as hell isn't dry a few millimetres deeper in! Also, I get the sense that, when it comes to how long one should wait to climb on sandstone after it rains, people hear stupidly low estimates, like "1 day and it's good" and they go with that despite all the evidence and seasoned experienced advice to the contrary because that's what they want to believe.

Sandstone needs several days to dry after a rain. I knew this within my first year of climbing, it's common knowledge. The length of drying time probably varies from area to area. Best to talk to locals and/or people at the gear shop for info about the rock being dry.

I'd feel like a total douche if I was "that guy" who busted the critical hold of some classic route because I couldn't wait another day or two to let the rock dry. Some places, like Vegas offer other places with other types of rock to climb if it rains.
Let soft rock dry after rain. It's your vacation and you're from some shitty place and it rained? Tuff titty said the kitty. Don't put all your eggs into one sandy basket.