Anchoring belayer to ground (single pitch)

Hey everyone. You're all correct! Every belay is a little bit different. If you anchor someone directly below a climb with a little loose handhold, that can be more dangerous than no anchor because your belayer can't move to avoid a rock fall. Sometimes pull in rope when someone falls. Sometimes let it slide a bit to give the softest catch.
All the little people I know who have climbed a lot have no problem catching much bigger leaders taking huge whippers with no anchor. Use a bottom anchor if you're not experienced or outweighed massively, but learn how to catch falls without the anchor. Many crags just don't have decent bottom anchors. Like most things in climbing - do it a little differently every time to adapt to the situation at hand.

jmeizis wrote:[I'm t]alking about belaying the leader off a ground anchor at the bottom of a single pitch climb. Very simple process: 1. Build ground anchor with the masterpoint at about the same height as your belay loop. 2. Hook belay device into anchor, just as you would otherwise belay a leader. 3. Belayer clips their belay loop into the masterpoint as well to provide a backup should the anchor fail. They could just as well connect a sling from their belay loop to the belay locker, or masterpoint (can't see their being a significant difference between the two) 4. Belay as normal but eliminate any transferance of force to the belayer themselves.

Have you ever actually done this? It sounds awfully awkward. First of all, since you would be facing the ATC, you will be using motions to feed out and take in rope that are the opposite of normal. Secondly, you almost certainly could not clip your belay loop directly into the anchor master point; you'd be way too close to the anchor. You'd have to clip in with a sling (maybe that's what you meant, but at best, you were ambiguous).

But ignoring the apparent awkwardness, you're not going to find such an ideal placement for the anchor for very many sport routes. Sport routes almost by definition have few to no gear placements, much less placements right where you need them to get your anchor at waist level. I'd be hard pressed to think of more than a handful of sport routes I've ever seen where you could do this.

Finally, as to safety, it is generally considered poor practice to belay a leader directly off a gear anchor. Usually, this is discussed in the context of multi-pitch climbing, in part, I'm sure, because that's where the impact force can be the highest, but probably as well because nobody would contemplate doing a direct belay off the ground.

And on a philosophical note, how can you even entertain the notion of backing up a belay anchor?

Jay

Jay Tanzman wrote:Review the the thread on rc.com where basically Rgold and I explain repeatedly to a hoard of n00bs why belaying your second off the anchor is, more often than not, an inexcusable practice. Please explain how you could routinely belay a leader in a safe manner directly off an anchor on the ground at a typical sport crag using an ATC.

Timothy Mark wrote: Could you link to it, for people who don't read rc.com? Or perhaps recap the argument here?

Actually, our objections were to belaying the second off the anchor using an autoblocking device. In the original rc.com thread, someone posted a quote by Richard Goldstone that was a better statement of my opinion than I actually made in any of my own posts.

Richard Goldstone wrote:

"Auto[b]locking belay devices have their place for experienced climbers moving fast on multipitch routes, especially in parties of three, and for guides who want to keep their clients moving up. For cragging, I think they suck for giving upper belays because of the difficulty of paying rope back out to a second who wants to step down. Guides don't care much about this; let the client end up on tension, but for seconds who would actually like to climb the pitch, an autolocker belay is an annoyance.

"When it comes to lowering, they also stink. Depending on how much of the climber's weight is transmitted up to the belayer, the belayer might have to exert a lot of force in order to rotate the plate into lowering position. They might be tempted to use both hands to do this. When you release a loaded autolocker, there is a quite sudden loss of friction and the potential for a rapid drop, although the plate should lock back up in that situation once the raising force is released.

"All in all, what we have is a solution to a problem that never existed. Yes, it is slightly more convenient to use guide mode, easier on your back, for instance, but you are interposing another layer of technology and then practially inviting disaster by enjoying all the hands-free "benefits" conferred by the device."

I'd post a link to the original thread, but it seems impossible to do, or even to just post the URL, since the URL contains semicolons. If you want to peruse the original thread you can search for a phrase in Rich's quote above on rockclimbing.com. There are a handful of good posts, but you'll to suffer through a lot of flaming to find them.

Jay Tanzman wrote:...Sport routes almost by definition have few to no gear placements, much less placements right where you need them to get your anchor at waist level. I'd be hard pressed to think of more than a handful of sport routes I've ever seen where you could do this...Jay

Clearly you've never climbed in Boulder Canyon.

EdAsh wrote:Wow Rich! Kudo's to you.. I must defer to your experience ... I've only climbed in Boulder Canyon for....let me think...32 years... but go on...tell me how cool you are and how trad you are??

Calm down. It was a joke.

And what is your point exactly? That there aren't lots of bolted cracks in Boulder Canyon?

EdAsh wrote:Rich, I think your an idiot...

That's priceless.

Here, I'll help you out: wikihow.com/Use-You're-and-Your

EdAsh wrote:Rich, I think you're an idiot, but let's just climb something together... (just joking... I admire your style) and yes let's climb.

I also want to point out "let's"

Sorry, been doing an english project for the last many hours.

JJ Brunner wrote: I also want to point out "let's" Sorry, been doing an english project for the last many hours.

Back to the books for you* - "let's" is a contraction (let us) and in the context Ed used it, correct.

• there are no allies when it comes to grammar-Nazis.

You damn grammar nazi... But like I said, I'd been doing a project for MANY hours!

Jay, I have done it, it was part of an instructor course. It does take a little getting used to but the feel of it is not all that much different than normal belaying. If your anchor is directional to the leader (which it should be) then you'll be standing right next to it and facing the same way you would if belaying off your belay loop. Depending on the size of your masterpoint you can clip into it from the belay loop. I find this weird because it feels like you're on a very short leash. I prefer to clip in with a sling for ease of movement. I've used this very little outside the course I learned it in. I also count myself more towards the experienced end of the belayer spectrum. I have made some people use it when belaying me because of our weight difference, terrain, or other reasons. I've also had people belay me off their harness with an anchor backup. I prefer the other way because generally the people I use this with are inexperienced and small. I don't want to surprise them by yanking them around. Given our limited time together it's the best option. I'm remodeling my kitchen right now but when I get a chance I'll try to post a picture because I'm doing a poor job of describing it.

Anchor placement is the biggest issue because you're right, finding an ideal anchor that's close to the wall so you don't rack your climber if they fall at the first bolt is difficult but that accounts for any ground anchor. The OP asked about anchoring his girlfriend so I think they may choose climbs that only have ground anchors in adequate places or they make a trade off between the possibility of getting racked at the first bolt or possible loss of control of the belay by their belayer. Tough choice.

You're right, I didn't really give much thought to doing this in a multipitch context, but now that you bring up the point about the possibility of factor 2 onto the belay it certainly moves it from the "feasible but akward category" to the "undesirable and possibly dangerous" category. That not being an issue in most single pitch situations it seems like it could alleviate the OP's issue of anchoring down the girlfriend and her having to deal with any fall forces. Given the context the question was posted in this seems helpful. If the context suggested a higher level of belayer experience I might not have said anything.

As for the belaying a second off the anchor, that's why I use a gri-gri, don't tell Petzl. It is a pain in the ass to lower someone with an ATC in guide mode because it takes some setup time. Even if you're practiced at it it takes some time so it's easier to just use a gri-gri. Like all devices though you have to know the nuances and limitations of using it.

I realize this post is about belaying seconds and not leaders as in the OP's question, but since we went down this path...

I don't have trouble with this. Paying out for a downclimb is different, as is watching the climber over the shoulder, but I don't find it awkward at all and feel safer that I'm on a small ledge and out of the shock equation (unless the anchor should fail completely).

Jay, how is this arrangement [relatively more] dangerous than belaying directly off the harness? It's a fairly commonplace setup.

Brian Hudson wrote:A lead fall can produce force in the neighborhood of 4-7kN. That's about 900-1500lbs of force that would be trying to straighten out her waist loop.

Since you are just quoting that number from somewhere you should know that refers to the force on the top piece in a lead fall, not the force on the belayer, which is much less and limited by the holding force of the belay device and belayer's grip.

Also, most people have their belay loop in front. The pull is outward and away from the abdomen, giving more space in front and back, yet pinching inward on the sides/hips.

Greg D wrote: PS 4-7kn is more like 1000-1750 lbf. Just nit picking.

If the internet is right and a kN is 224.809lbs, then:

4-7kN is 899.236-1573.663 lbs..

EdAsh wrote: Let me see, I was only correct one out five...

one out of five?

EdAsh wrote: I seriously doubt it though.

I would also recommend rewording this sentence. Something like, "However, I seriously doubt it" might suffice.

EdAsh wrote: Hey Rich, There are some "sporty" sport climbs on the west face of Suprising Crag ...PSS: Rich I proof read this a couple times... crap getting a PhD was easier the passing the muster with the MP crowd ...

PM sent to avoid hijacking this thread any further...

Rich Farnham wrote: PM sent to avoid hijacking this thread any further...

Would you like a whamburger with those french cries? To get back on topic, I started climbing with my little brother who I had 50-60 pounds on. I never anchored him, just stressed not to stand where he'd pulled straight horizontally into the rock. But I never fell with him belaying so...

EdAsh wrote:JJ you are spot on...well mostly....maybe we could climb and then you would forgive my ignorance cheers

Maybe someday...not to worry though! I have just finished the last bit of my schoolwork ENTIRELY! My logged MP hours are going to substantially decrease now...

Greg D wrote:Since you are just quoting that number from somewhere you should know that refers to the force on the top piece in a lead fall, not the force on the belayer, which is much less and limited by the holding force of the belay device and belayer's grip.

Well it's more like 3.36-6.941kN, at least when I bring along my personal dynamometer to the crag. :eyeroll: What are you looking for here? The point still stands.

Greg D wrote:Also, most people have their belay loop in front.

Golly, you mean all this time I should have been wearing it in the front? Lucky I'm still alive.

Greg D wrote:PS 4-7kn is more like 1000-1750 lbf. Just nit picking.

Well, Google says 1 newton = 0.224808943 pounds force, which means 4-7kN is 899.235772-1573.662601 pounds. But now we're both just nit-picking.

EdAsh wrote: And JJ ...you will never get rich correcting my faux pas

Joke's on you, I had to google that.