Guides Adding Bolts

In the long run when we are gone and climbing is no more--bolts will still be there. tat will fade and rot away eventually get covered up by dirt and other sediment, obviously its still garbage. But the root of the matter is commitment. when you start a climb that is only a few pitches, but you know every belay is natural there is a certain mind set that your in versus a low commitment bolted belay climb that might be longer. Its the style inwhich we are headed that draws the subject into discussion. Convience anchors show a lackof respect for not only the FFA's but also the climb as well.

I would rather chop someones tat and replace it with my own than drill holes into the rock. I would rather see a few pitons in a crack that 2 shiny bolts next to it. Climbing is all about the risks you take and the premeditated manor inwhich you get yourself into those situations. If we as a whole continue this trend than it all goes back to BSmoot's original post, "One of the reasons this really bothers me is that guides are teaching new climbers to almost expect bolted belays everywhere."

ok after reading the route description it seems someone went bolt crazy. but 1 person noted that on a climb in the cirque of the unclimables it has had belay stations added without anyone being upset. It just backs up my opinion that once someone enters harder rockclimbing the ethics somehow change. or that gear left on the face is ok mid pitch as long as it is trad gear turned into resident pro. look at all of the fixed lines left in the himalaya to rot and O2 bottles left just laying around because it's the land of the hardmen. look at topographical oceans on the dome in colo. the 5.8 pitches are run-out but the finishing 5.10b pitch has about 9 or 10 bolts in about 70 feet.....what the heck is that? the folks climbing on devils tower have bolted belays on most climbs that were never there on first ascents. yes the guides went crazy on the west slabs route but alot of the folks reporting about the climb did not even notice all of the stations and some that did had no problem with them. I liked christian griffith (sp) alot and never climbed 5.13 but his route called desdechado (sp) on redgarden at eldo seemed like a bolt fest to me, but he was a hardman doing a very hard route so he did not fade as much heat for that as these guides do by providing rap/belay anchors.

leo costillo wrote:I love bolted belays. I wish all climbs had them. Climbing hard and long trad lines only to find the pro you have left doesn't build a safe anchor blows. You have no choice to either risk it or to rap. What if the pitch is to long to rap? your fucked (lumpys ridge). I for one don't like BS anchor systems and it doesn't matter how many ball nuts or mini cams you have when you building with zero stance on some chausy boo boo micro crack system. Being a guide though in no way shape or form gives you the right to bolt something. If its some BS top rop stop off the grid where the boyscouts go then whatever but if its someone else FA they better ask to retro bolt.

You must be trolling. If not, wow. Sounds like you need to carry more gear and/or learn how to manage what you have.

ddriver wrote: Good job of proving Brian's point. You can't cope with Lumpy? Wow, times are hard.

its just an example you climbing douche.

J. Albers wrote: You must be trolling. If not, wow. Sounds like you need to carry more gear and/or learn how to manage what you have.

geez i guess you take a day or two reading and looking at a climb before you climb it. did you not read I say it doesnt matter how much gear you have. Some of the belays are shit.

leo costillo wrote: geez i guess you take a day or two reading and looking at a climb before you climb it. did you not read I say it doesnt matter how much gear you have. Some of the belays are shit.

Please don't feed the troll.

Tony Calderone wrote:A few examples of 2 bolt rappel stations added after the FA by someone other than the FA party: Bushwhack Crack P1, Callitwhatyouplease, Mexican Crack, Hand Jive, Bong Eater, The Coffin P1, Razor's Edge, Fudd Crack, Under the Skirt, The Italian Arete, Pentapitch P1, Pentapitch P4, Pentapitch P5, Variety Delight P1, Variety Delight P2, Over Easy, Superslab P1, Beckey's Wall P1, Beckey's Wall P2, Satan's Corner P1, Satan's Corner P2, Tarzan P1, Tarzan P2, Cranial Prophalactic, Stiffler's Mom P1, Stiffler's Mom P2, Stiffler's Mom P3, Stiffler's Mom P4... just to name a few off the top of my head.

Still doesn't make it right, and robs folks of part of the learning curve in my opinion. Yes, maybe I am a hypocrite because I have rapped off of these stations, but some of these routes I did without the convenience stations and everything was just fine. No one died. No one was benighted and had to eat their partner. We just had to climb up and off! I know this is a losing battle...but does it ALL need to be so convenient? This sport use to be about self reliance and learning a craft and sometimes commitment and adventure...now it seems it's all about making sure gym climbers don't get in over their heads in the big scary real world outside. By dumbing it down for the lowest common denominator....we all end up a little dumber in the end. Just my opinion, which isn't worth much really...

Jim Gloeckler wrote:ok after reading the route description it seems someone went bolt crazy. but 1 person noted that on a climb in the cirque of the unclimables it has had belay stations added without anyone being upset. It just backs up my opinion that once someone enters harder rockclimbing the ethics somehow change. or that gear left on the face is ok mid pitch as long as it is trad gear turned into resident pro. look at all of the fixed lines left in the himalaya to rot and O2 bottles left just laying around because it's the land of the hardmen. look at topographical oceans on the dome in colo. the 5.8 pitches are run-out but the finishing 5.10b pitch has about 9 or 10 bolts in about 70 feet.....what the heck is that? the folks climbing on devils tower have bolted belays on most climbs that were never there on first ascents. yes the guides went crazy on the west slabs route but alot of the folks reporting about the climb did not even notice all of the stations and some that did had no problem with them. I liked christian griffith (sp) alot and never climbed 5.13 but his route called desdechado (sp) on redgarden at eldo seemed like a bolt fest to me, but he was a hardman doing a very hard route so he did not fade as much heat for that as these guides do by providing rap/belay anchors.

Let us know when 2 wrongs start adding up to a right.

toddgordon wrote:It's happened a few places at Joshua Tree.......it's very rare......a couple of crags out of 8000 climbs.....it's pissing in the ocean....no big deal.

Todd is so nice. There are instances in Josh where the addition of chains and bolts at the top of climbs are nice, but others where it's clearly for convenience and it's really led to overcrowding.

For example, the chains at the top of Exorcist are nice because the descent was inobvious and kind of dicey.

In contrast, the chains at the top of White Lightning/Poodles are People Too have led to folks who can't lead a 5.7 handcrack setting up a TR on Poodles that can be pretty much there all day on a weekend, not to mention the bottom crux getting polished. In that instance, there's both an easy walk off and a nearby downclimb, plus lots of places for good natural anchors up top. In other words, there's absolutely no reason why the bolts and chains were installed other than for convenience. While we could say it doesn't happen often so it's no big deal, it establishes a really bad precedent and gives weight to anyone else who wants to turn the crags into a gym.

The Wasatch unfortunately has too many convenience anchors. Does the standard route on the thumb really need bolted belay stations? Very few classic routes remain that lack bolted anchors.

Although I learned to climb and place gear in the Wasatch, I didn't learn efficient and proper gear anchor skills until moving away.

Gear belays add a minor amount of commitment and extra work, yet teach beginners fundamental skills necessary on bigger routes.

Whining rant over.

leo costillo wrote:I love bolted belays.

I too love bolted belays. It just makes the whole process cleaner, faster, and safer. What's not to love about that?

You guys are such elitists ... bolts just make it so everyone can climb a route, not just the ones who can afford a trad rack. There are so many great routes out there that I cant do because I can only afford a couple quick draws, but when I go to shelf road I can feel free again. Take the compressor route for example, lots of bolts, very safe and put up in great style ... Just like ottos route, but it could still use a few extra bolts, those pins are scarrry!

Price,
You missed my point. Why is it that folks new to the sport are expected to climb runout routes (1st and 3rd Flatirons), but hardmen can bend the ethics as needed. Instead of just dissing me outright, address the issue I spoke of.

Tea,
You wrote,"Yes, maybe I am a hypocrite because I have rapped off of these stations". I agree....you are. But we all are sometimes. That is the kind of post you are most famous for IMO. But I have posted some things that I'm not proud of myself. It's passion I guess.

Pat,
The compressor route was great ego, not great style. You would benefit by reading more/some climbing history.

This ethics war has been going on since the 70's or maybe before that, I see no end to it, and maybe it's healthy for the sport in the long run. Take care and push yourselves while you are young, but don't forget to sometimes climb to enjoy! :)

Pat Erley wrote:You guys are such elitists ... bolts just make it so everyone can climb a route, not just the ones who can afford a trad rack. There are so many great routes out there that I cant do because I can only afford a couple quick draws, but when I go to shelf road I can feel free again. Take the compressor route for example, lots of bolts, very safe and put up in great style ... Just like ottos route, but it could still use a few extra bolts, those pins are scarrry!

Doing the titan with only a couple quickdraws must have been scarrry also.

Phil Lauffen wrote: Doing the titan with only a couple quickdraws must have been scarrry also.

you have no idea.

Will Butler wrote: I too love bolted belays. It just makes the whole process cleaner, faster, and safer. What's not to love about that?

Cleaner? What is your definition of clean?

Many "green" managers and eco-friendly admins are often recommending anchors on top of popular climbs, so climbers can go up, and then right back down the non-living rock, and not trample the living vegetation and make trails leading from the walk offs back to the base of climbs. What do you think of this concept.

Pat Erley wrote: you have no idea.

I guess you could wedge them in there... kinda like tricams, right?

Tea,
I think it was the passion that you are most famous for, not being hypocritical. My bad.....I wasn't clear enough. By the way; I am like that too, but am trying my best to see both sides these days.

Bucket Head wrote: I often like a mental challenge short of risking my life to a solo.

Dude you're a badass!