Replacing Hangers

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First of all, good for you taking the initiative. Penitente is in dire need of route maintenance.
Here's the sort of bad news. There's a bolt ban down there, how extensive I don't know. But you should have a drill available as a last resort sort of thing. We hope the bolt simply loosens and you just swap out hardware, but there is also the chance that the stud or cap bolt could break, or the whole bolt just spins in the rock. Then things get shitty. Once you start you have to finish or you screw up the route.
Tod Anderson led us on a anchor replacing initiative at Castlewood last winter. He came up with some specialized tools for this sort of thing. One was a piton with a slot cut in the middle (grinder) making a tuning fork-like thing for wedging under anchors to help with tension for loosening. Another was his "funkness" rig, which was a swedged cable loop, a hammer, and a strong but trashable biner. This is used to hook up hammer to hanger, and swing away from the rock to pull the bolt out. You should plan on keeping with the same hole, which might mean drilling the bolt out or drilling the next bolt size bigger for a new bolt.
You also need to check with the BLM about permission.
Hope I haven't dissuaded you, it needs to be done.
Also, Mike White and Kevin Stricker both have a lot of replacing experience, perhaps they will chime in.

You could get lucky and replace the missing hanger and tighten up the anchors with little knowledge - but you would have to get lucky. There are loads of possibilities, many of which end with needing to replace the bolt itself (not just the hanger or tightening the old bolt).

With moving anchor hangers, the short version is that it's usually not a problem. In general, the deal is that a lot of anchor hangers start moving (due to a number of factors) but that the bolts themselves are typically fine. Worry if you find the bolt itself moving. Also in general, just tightening down the old bolts is a bad idea (but it can be a good idea in some instances). If the rock is soft, it can often be a good idea to extend the length of the anchors from (for instance) a link + ring to a longer chain (less inward force to make the hangers rotate).

And whatever you do, NEVER just crank a bolt as tight as you can. Lots of people snap brand-new 3/8" bolts doing that, even with short wrenches. You can even snap new 1/2" bolts if you get too aggro.

For the missing hanger, even if the bolt is the easiest one to replace a hanger (a simple stud bolt where the nut, washer, and hanger fell off), you will need the correct size nut and washer as well as the new hanger. That will hopefully just be a standard 3/8" nut (which needs a 9/16" wrench), but could be something else if you get unlucky (metric, different size, etc). But you need to make sure you have a high-grade steel nut, not a softer one. If it is a different type of bolt (such as a 5-piece), you will need the correct size, length, and metal type (grade 5 carbon steel, or stainless steel) bolt core - and you won't be able to tell that ahead of time unless you have the old bolt core (or details from the FA party - and then only if the FA party have unusually good memories). You will also need to blow out the hole before installing the new bolt core and hanger to prevent having the cone seize and start spinning.

If you do need to work on these routes, and there is no one local, if you take good close-up photos we can try to evaluate it remotely. If you don't have anyone around, and you don't know enough about it, then another option is to temporarily remove the remaining hangers so no one gets in trouble thinking that a bolt is there when the hanger is missing.

Greg Barnes wrote:In general, the deal is that a lot of anchor hangers start moving (due to a number of factors) but that the bolts themselves are typically fine.

A lot of times, bolts get loose when the hangers sit on rock that isn't perfectly flat (crystals break when the hanger is loaded, etc). So, if you replace the hanger with another one, and, it sets in a slighly different area, make sure you flatten the surface a bit prior to installation. The hanger should sit flush to the rock without rocking and without any loose (or soon to be loose) rock, lichen, dirt, etc, underneath.

Greg Barnes wrote:If it is a different type of bolt (such as a 5-piece), you will need the correct size, length, and metal type (grade 5 carbon steel, or stainless steel) bolt core - and you won't be able to tell that ahead of time unless you have the old bolt core (or details from the FA party - and then only if the FA party have unusually good memories).

Powers/rawl 5 piece bolts should have a head stamp that indicates whether it is grade 5 or stainless. Look up (or find a couple of bolts) the SAE stamp info. A grade 5 bolt will have three radial lines on the head. The stainless ones don't, and have usually a number (and "THE"). A hardware store visit would be helpful in seeing the difference.

americanfastener.com/techni…

Sometimes when folks beat the fastener in, it can be hard to see the marks (or if they're painted). If you know what you're looking for, that can really help.

Another way to tell is to use a magnet. Stainless is only very slightly attracted to a magnet, while the grade 5 bolts will suck right up. Helps to get a feel for this at home.

And, yeah, get a torque wrench. Stainless Powers bolts have a very very low installation torque. Overtorquing them can be really, really bad.

If you have to replace the bolt by drilling another hole, move the hole at least 6 inches or more from the previous placement. There's a cone of weakness in a bolt placement that is approximately the length of the bolt. When placing two top anchors, or, a single bolt on a route, a good rule of thumb is to separate the bolt placements by at least a full span of your hand between the end of your thumb and the tip of your pinky.

I hate cold shuts...(Fixe wilderness rings at the least!).

Cheers, and, good luck.

Like I said above, Penitente has bolt problems all over the place.
I also don't think it has any "locals" anymore.
So I have an idea. What if we organize a week-long anchor replacing "festival" down there? Get permission from the BLM, round up some gear from sponsor's, devise a tick list....
I'd be up for something like that. Who else? If this idea gets enough traction someone should start a thread for it.

There's no way that, with a normal hand wrench, that you can tighten a bolt anywhere close to the force it requires to shear it off...I've placed a bunch of bolts and basically just tighten them down as tight as I can...don't sweat it...

Dan Brayack wrote:There's no way that, with a normal hand wrench, that you can tighten a bolt anywhere close to the force it requires to shear it off...

i've done it.

Dan Brayack wrote:There's no way that, with a normal hand wrench, that you can tighten a bolt anywhere close to the force it requires to shear it off...I've placed a bunch of bolts and basically just tighten them down as tight as I can...don't sweat it...

Darren Mabe wrote: i've done it.

I've seen it happen. Twice.

Please don't listen to Dan. I am sure he means well, but it is possible to shear bolts, and it is possible to weaken them considerably if they are over-torqued.

Dan Brayack wrote:There's no way that, with a normal hand wrench, that you can tighten a bolt anywhere close to the force it requires to shear it off...

I've done it too.

Dan Brayack wrote:There's no way that, with a normal hand wrench, that you can tighten a bolt anywhere close to the force it requires to shear it off...I've placed a bunch of bolts and basically just tighten them down as tight as I can...don't sweat it...

I, also, have done this...

Randy Leavitt told me that he stopped using 3/8" 5-pieces entirely after snapping a half-dozen or so while tightening.

Marty Lewis & Peter Croft snapped some 3/8" Lok-bolts (which are crappy bolts) at Owens before they stopped using them.

And I've snapped off a pile of old 3/8" and 10mm bolts just by tightening them, deliberately, during bolt replacement. Not such a great indicator though since most were at least 10 years old.

Darren Mabe wrote: i've done it.

Man, so many people braking bolts just by torquing them? Just out of curiosity, what kind of bolts, and where are they breaking?

I have ZERO bolting experience, but climb on them all the time. If they are braking just by being torqued then I have to wonder how many bots are actually getting adequate clamping force with the rock which is necessary to provide strength. Speaking from an engineering stand point, bolts are generally meant to be torqued to produce high clamping forces between the two surfaces being bolted together (rock and hanger). These clamping forces are meant to provide the majority of the bolt strength, with the actual bolt shear strength contributing little overall strength.

Sorry about the thread drift. but i'm just curious about people experiences having bolts braking while being torqued

You do not need to crank em' down.
Check this:
supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

Greg Barnes wrote:Randy Leavitt told me that he stopped using 3/8" 5-pieces entirely after snapping a half-dozen or so while tightening. Marty Lewis & Peter Croft snapped some 3/8" Lok-bolts (which are crappy bolts) at Owens before they stopped using them. And I've snapped off a pile of old 3/8" and 10mm bolts just by tightening them, deliberately, during bolt replacement. Not such a great indicator though since most were at least 10 years old.

Were these stainless bolts or non-stainless?

Listen to Greg, he knows what he is talking about.

If you organize something down there next spring let me know, I have a drill and I am willing to use it. The recent Rifle clean up and anchor replacement fest was quite successful.

The keys are getting permission from the land manager, hardware from Greg and ASCA and people with drills who know what they are doing. The more the better as it takes time to completely redo a route.

Make a list of route priorities and you will have an organized plan of attack.

Dan Brayack wrote:There's no way that, with a normal hand wrench, that you can tighten a bolt anywhere close to the force it requires to shear it off...I've placed a bunch of bolts and basically just tighten them down as tight as I can...don't sweat it...

Like others have said, this is not true. I have snapped numerous 3/8" studs both new and old using a standard box end wrench.

replace worn drill bits.

Do NOT crank as hard as you can to tighten a bolt. The mechanical advantage to be had over the lengthwise strength of a bolt is immense given the nut/bolt (inclined plane wrapped around a shaft concept) as well as the leverage of the wrench used to apply that force. It's very possible to snap a bolt by tightening it. If you've never done it and are placing bolts, please set up a test and do so so that you can see this in action.

The ideal bolt placement (read: strongest to catch a fall, etc) has the nut tightened just so that the friction of the hanger against the rock absorbs the entire force of the fall and NO stress is actually transferred to the bolt. Yes, this is very possible however commonly not the case. The idea is to get as close to this ideal scenario as possible. Tests done have proven that none of the force from a perpendicularly - applied load is felt by the bolt when the nut is tightened past a certain point.

If someone knows the link to the article that produced this data, please post it. I believe it was by an engineer that got into caving and ended up doing several tests. There are several other tests and subsequent reports online outlining this concept. Obviously, this effect diminishes with the change of the angle of the force in relation to the installation plane but the idea is that the bolt is in place merely to hold the hanger against the wall and not [directly] to catch the weight of a perpendicular fall.

Also, keep in mind, sleeve-style anchors will have a smaller diameter bolt than wedge anchors per size.

Both, but mostly non-stainless (simply because most people don't use stainless).

In fact I know a rebolter who replaces a lot of old rusted 3/8" stud bolts who just snaps them all off with a long wrench, and he snaps a good number of them with very little effort (like 1/8 of a turn). Others he has to crank on - those you would never be able to snap with a short wrench. But you can't tell ahead of time which is which.

Also that's our standard way of snapping off the old Urioste bolts - both their 1/4" and 3/8" - at Red Rocks. If we ever took a video of just how easy it is to snap those things, no one would ever touch a Urioste route that hadn't been rebolted (their old bolts were lower grade steel than most old bolts - SUPER easy to snap).

Daryl Allan wrote:Also, keep in mind, sleeve-style anchors will have a smaller diameter bolt than wedge anchors per size.

This is a common misconception that is often used to support the incorrect idea that stud/wedge bolts are stronger than sleeve bolts. Sleeve bolts are stronger even though it seems like the bolt core is thinner. The threads cut quite a bit of the diameter out of stud/wedge bolts, and the design cuts the strength. Just go look up the strength ratings (for instance between Power-bolts and Power-studs at powers.com - mechanical bolts).

Lee Smith wrote: I've seen it happen. Twice. Please don't listen to Dan. I am sure he means well, but it is possible to shear bolts, and it is possible to weaken them considerably if they are over-torqued.

Precisely. Lee is 100% correct. Not only is it possible to weaken the bolt, in overhead placements, it WILL weaken the placement. Think about how the wedge stops the bolt from pulling out. The cone pushes outward, driving the sleeve 'nub' into the rock creating friction which prevents the bolt from sliding out of the hole. So, given the friction of the cone/sleeve as well as the integrity/strength of the rock is > the force applied to the installation, bolt will hold, right?

All this, however rides on what? The lengthwise (linear?) strength of the bolt. As you tighten the nut, you increase the load on that bolt before any fall force is applied (added) to the equation. So, for sake of making a point, if one tightened said nut just below the point of breaking the bolt and a 400lb downward force is applied,....

Hence the reason I don't get sketched out by [wedge] spinners. That's one bolt i know isn't over-torqued. ;)