Red River - Accident

slim wrote:agree with j albers - i think people put way to much faith in the device and way too little effort in making sure they have their shit together.

Exacto correct. We have a young sport community where many have never belayed with a REAL belay plate that requires their attention and tight grip all the time. Spoiled and careless, this is what the grigri has brought upon us. I still think everyone needs to learn from 'Freedom of the Hills' and hold at least one fall with a hip belay to show they have real control of a rope.

forget technique. who lets someone belay who's already dropped two people? seems to me the primary cause of the accident was the decision to let her belay in the first place.

Man, all I know is the worst thing that could happen to me in climbing is to drop my partner. Think about the violation of trust that is. I mean, you are faithless to your spouse you get a divorce, you are faithless to your climbing partner and they get hurt or die. Because of you. Because you were too busy being cool or whatever to care for their safety, which they completely entrusted to you.
I'd think I'd blame something else too, then start free-soloing exclusively to deal with the guilt.

Mark Nelson wrote:I disagree that the former technique fails in rope control. I find it gives better control. People don't do it correctly is the problem, not the method.

I agree with Mark. I know he's already been agreed with but I wanted to add my two cents. Far too often at these "high level crags" I see people just holding the grigri with cam in hand and yarding slack with the left. It seems to be this "technique" that has become popular because it makes a device that can be awkward to use, easier to use and "still safe" because it's an "autolocking" device (or as it should be properly called "locking assist".)

Anyhow, it's for the same reason that I switched to a Cinch. I feel like it was designed to be inherently safer when CORRECTLY used than the awkward methods of using a Grigri that never sat well with me or led to worse habits.

That's not to say either device is safer than the other, but I feel I can operate the Cinch in an easier and safer manner without falling into bad habits or making compromises about taking my brake hand off the rope or holding something open to feed slack than I can with the Grigri.

If you're not familiar with the Cinch, you hold the device to the side which rotates the plates open to feed slack. You aren't holding the plates open, you only position the device in such a way that they are open. Whereas with a Grigri, the two most popular methods (both endorsed by Petzl) require that you hold shut the camming device that causes the belay device to actually restrict a fall.

If anyone would like to familiarize themselves with the Cinch for belaying: youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ik…

Yes, many tout the advantages of gri gri's. Yet, we hear of accidents again and again resulting from improper use. The device is plainly flawed. Why? Cause there are many subtleties that can lead to failure. Many of the above posts speak of proper technique. This is the flaw.

Back in the day climbers belayed using a hip belay. Wrap it around your body and NEVER LET GO. Simple.

Then, a munter. Bend it this way and NEVER LET GO. Simple.

Next, a stitch plate. Pull down and NEVER LET GO. Simple.

ATC, more of the same and NEVER LET GO. Simple.

Enter gri gris. Hold it this way. Pinch it that way. Put your pinky here and your thumb up your ass. Open a PBR and smoke a cig. It's hands free and auto locking. Wait, no. It's not hands free. Its "lock" assisting. People are decking so we are changing our motto.

God Damnit people. Stop defending this piece of shit. Pilot error. Bla bla bla. I have been belayed less than 1% of my leads with a gri gri. I have been "dropped" twice. Those odds suck. Once from too skinny of a rope. A five footer turned 20 footer. WTF. Yeah, improper use, right? Once, fell from the top of a gym route and hit my belayer near the ground. Yeah, improper use, right?

Also, every time I go to the gym I see a dedicated climber wheel himself around the gym in a wheelchair with casts on both ankles. When I asked him what happened his response was belayer/gri gri error. Some of you know him. I don't.

Most everyone that defends the gri gri is an experienced climber, and claims technique was the problem. Holly fuck! Belaying is the most basic and important link in the system. All these subtleties of the fucking gri gri is just dumb. The first time climber can belay safely with an atc like device with a 10 second lesson. Pull down. Never, ever, ever let go of the brake. Simple.

Spare me the rhetoric that it is good for aid and rope solo, etc. This is not what I'm talking about. For beginner and intermediate belayers (not climbers) it is junk, heavy and expensive to boot. Technique is paramount with any device. But, a device with such subtleties is junk.

I am super sad to hear about the dog. Totally avoidable accident.

I have belayed and been belayed hundreds of times with a gri-gri from skinnier to thicker rope. If you have half a brain and half a grip you should never drop a climber! All this crap about a device being too complicated is ridiculous. If you can't understand the simple rule of, "don't release the brake strand", you shouldn't belay with any device!

When I teach new lead belayers about how to use a Gri-Gri its the same basic chat I have with them about an ATC; don't release brake strand, don't get your hands too close to the device, keep your brake hand below device (yes even when feeding), be ready to grip tight and most importantly, PAY ATTENTION! Unless gear falls apart on you and stops working, the blame rests solely on your inability to either learn or execute the proper technique when using said device.

When a person crashes a car do they blame it on the "subtleties" or how complicated it is to drive? I would hope not.

Choss Chasin' wrote:I have belayed and been belayed hundreds of times with a gri-gri from skinnier to thicker rope. If you have half a brain and half a grip you should never drop a climber! All this crap about a device being too complicated is ridiculous. If you can't understand the simple rule of, "don't release the brake strand", you shouldn't belay with any device! When I teach new lead belayers about how to use a Gri-Gri its the same basic chat I have with them about an ATC; don't release brake strand, don't get your hands too close to the device, keep your brake hand below device (yes even when feeding), be ready to grip tight and most importantly, PAY ATTENTION! Unless gear falls apart on you and stops working, the blame rests solely on your inability to either learn or execute the proper technique when using said device. When a person crashes a car do they blame it on the "subtleties" or how complicated it is to drive? I would hope not.

You missed the point. Perhaps you have 9 tenths of a brain. Just kidding. Don't get your panties in a wad. Your teachings are sound and I would take a belay with anybody taught by you. The problem lies in the mindset, which was different years ago when the gri gri was introduced. A gri gri is not complicated and the subtleties wouldn't matter if taught the way you teach. The problem lies in the auto lock/ lock assist mindset that is prevalent with gri gri users.

Imagine a car steering wheel that requires you to hold on and never let go. Turn it left to go left, turn it right to go right, but never let go.

Now introduce a steering wheel that claims it will steer itself. Pinch it this way to go right , pinch it that way to go left, let go if you need to text message.

Gri gris are like this in a way. The mindset for some in using a gri gri is different. Hence, accidents and more accidents. If taught like you stated above, no problem. The device is quite simple. Yet, people keep decking with it. The difference: the mindset or the teaching. With other devices that don't claim "auto lock" or auto assist these type of problems don't exist.

Greg D wrote:God Damnit people. Stop defending this piece of shit.

That's a little over the top, don't you think? If you don't like grigris or can't figure out how to use them properly, don't use them and don't let your belayer use them. It's pretty simple.

For the record, I've been dropped once by a belayer. She was using an ATC, but you won't hear me calling the ATC a flawed device.

JL

Greg D wrote: Now introduce a steering wheel that claims it will steer itself. Pinch it this way to go right , pinch it that way to go left, let go if you need to text message. Gri gris are like this in a way.

The gri or any type of device like it really isn't like this analogy and they don't claim to be.

However, don't we now have a car that parallel parks itself? I need that. I completely suck at parallel parking; even with a jeep. I'm either on the sidewalk or 4 feet from the gutter (story of my life btw).

Maybe another thought along the panic-stop; what about a clutching mechanism? If the rope is clearly moving at a high rate, can a clutch engage & stop it?

I again suggest those with difficulty mastering the grigri device, to go get a 'click-up'. they are simple and pretty dam cool, besides 40 bucks cheaper.

Greg D wrote: You missed the point. Perhaps you have 9 tenths of a brain. Just kidding. Don't get your panties in a wad. Your teachings are sound and I would take a belay with anybody taught by you. The problem lies in the mindset, which was different years ago when the gri gri was introduced. A gri gri is not complicated and the subtleties wouldn't matter if taught the way you teach. The problem lies in the auto lock/ lock assist mindset that is prevalent with gri gri users. Imagine a car steering wheel that requires you to hold on and never let go. Turn it left to go left, turn it right to go right, but never let go. Now introduce a steering wheel that claims it will steer itself. Pinch it this way to go right , pinch it that way to go left, let go if you need to text message. Gri gris are like this in a way. The mindset for some in using a gri gri is different. Hence, accidents and more accidents. If taught like you stated above, no problem. The device is quite simple. Yet, people keep decking with it. The difference: the mindset or the teaching. With other devices that don't claim "auto lock" or auto assist these type of problems don't exist.

I'm sure all climbers have 9/10ths a brain, otherwise we would know better than to climb! I think we should institute a new policy. It will state that all belayers must stand directly beneath the climbers path to the ground. That way it will make damn sure that the belayer is paying attention, or, smooooshhhhh. Eventually between Darwin's law and fear of belayer death climbers will stop being dropped! There I just solved all belay error problems. Wow, I'm smart!!!! hahaha.

I just want to point out I admittedly have 2 brains that fight over that same 9/10ths and they unfortunately don't seem to share or distribute the load very well.

dhayan wrote:my condolences to spot

It's Pepper. Don't let the folks on Red River Climbing see you call it "Spot" or you'll be in for a flame fest.

I'm with you, Greg D. I sold my Gri Gri to a friend recently after staring at it in the gear trunk for almost ten years. To me it's a superfluous, heavy piece of gear searching for a purpose. I don't sit out hour long hang dog sessions, so I need nothing more than an ATC XP.

Woodchuck ATC wrote: I still think everyone needs to learn from 'Freedom of the Hills' and hold at least one fall with a hip belay to show they have real control of a rope.

Well said Chuck, but remember most sport climber's are Weaned from climbing gyms, or from climbers who where,
I bet less then 10% have held a fall with a hip belay, even top rope,

I was showed how to use a gri gri that way by holding the lever to pay out slack, but it breaks one of the first rules of climbing I learned, never let go of the brake hand,

I don't find the Trango Cinch' any better. Small is nice, but it has a terribly jerky feel to lowering. Nothing is smoother than a goldline rope around your ass, burning a belay hole in your pants. ATC's all the way.

Stich wrote:I'm with you, Greg D. I sold my Gri Gri to a friend recently after staring at it in the gear trunk for almost ten years. To me it's a superfluous, heavy piece of gear searching for a purpose. I don't sit out hour long hang dog sessions, so I need nothing more than an ATC XP.

I think Gri-Gris are great for belaying someone on TR, or bringing up a second. It makes a great ratchet in a pulley system (auto-blocking ATCs not so much).

That said, I hate belaying a leader or being belayed on lead with one. In my experience it is impossible to strip out line rapidly (usually when someone is attempting to make a clip) without manually disengaging the cam. Even with the "new method", I think you are putting the leader at extreme risk if they fall while you have the cam disengaged as the belayer is required to do something (release the cam) to arrest your fall. The belayer with an ATC is always in position to catch a fall so they needn't do anything.

Anthony Baraff wrote:In my experience it is impossible to strip out line rapidly (usually when someone is attempting to make a clip) without manually disengaging the cam. Even with the "new method", I think you are putting the leader at extreme risk if they fall while you have the cam disengaged as the belayer is required to do something (release the cam) to arrest your fall. The belayer with an ATC is always in position to catch a fall so they needn't do anything.

I guess everyone's experience is different. I can yard out slack to a leader with my grigri much quicker than if I'm belaying with an ATC-type device, and my brake hand never loses contact with the rope. I've had instances of going from feeding slack for a clip to catching a fall a split second later, and I've never dropped a leader or lost control of the brake side.

JL

saxfiend wrote: I guess everyone's experience is different. I can yard out slack to a leader with my grigri much quicker than if I'm belaying with an ATC-type device, and my brake hand never loses contact with the rope. I've had instances of going from feeding slack for a clip to catching a fall a split second later, and I've never dropped a leader or lost control of the brake side. JL

So you use the same method as you would an ATC--feeding line with your brake hand and pulling with your other hand? If it's not an issue, why does Petzl specify either of the techniques illustrated in the video? Shouldn't they just show the normal ATC method?

I'm legitimately curious because with thicker ropes I can feed rope through using the ATC method on a Gri-Gri quickly enough to keep up with the climber, but it frequently becomes an issue to let line out fast enough if they are attempting to clip.

Anthony Baraff wrote: So you use the same method as you would an ATC--feeding line with your brake hand and pulling with your other hand? If it's not an issue, why does Petzl specify either of the techniques illustrated in the video? Shouldn't they just show the normal ATC method? I'm legitimately curious because with thicker ropes I can feed rope through using the ATC method on a Gri-Gri quickly enough to keep up with the climber, but it frequently becomes an issue to let line out fast enough if they are attempting to clip.

He never said he used an ATC feed method. He said he never loses contact with the rope. The new Grigri method has at least 3 fingers on the rope at all times even when yarding out slack. Learn the method in the video, or switch to a Cinch which is way easier to lead belay on IMO