Cooking Inside a Tent w/a Liquid Fuel Stove?

I know people cook inside their tents. But, do they do so w/liquid fuel stoves or only w/canister stoves?

And, to anticipate a potential response, I'm not asking about ventilation. I know that is extremely important.

I'm worried about that ball of flame that burns for the first 30-ish seconds after you start a liquid fuel stove.

in a word, no. Unless you know your stove very well, I would stay away from that.

Just one of those large flames hitting the side of your tent would destroy it, obviously.

I definitely cook inside the tent with my w/white gas stoves (mainly whisperlight or xgk). It is, however, an endeavor that has nearly bit me in the ass on two occassions (over 15yrs) - one where we had the flare-up from hell mid blizzard during a winter ascent, and another where white gas spilled during priming and almost repeated the flare-up from hell incident albeit with our bags and pads added to the blaze. Those both happened in the early years, chalk it up to experience (bad judgement), but since then with added caution it's always worked fine.

Things I've learned:
- bring a large square of aluminum foil, doubled, to sit the stove on (this helps catch any spilled fuel during priming or otherwise), plus it keeps direct heat from blasting against your tent floor or sleeping pad
- prime that sucker GOOD, with as much fuel as that lower cup can handle... quite key to preventing the flare-up.
- do all this with an open door and with one of you at the ready to jetison the flaming setup into the night should it get unruly when you start it up for real.
- easiest way to eject the stove is by grabbing the fuel bottle and tossing it (flaming stove will follow on it's own). Kicking works in a pinch, but a deft kick might dislodge the fuel line from the pump (or some other Murphy nightmare) and give you an even bigger problem.

EDIT TO ADD: you have to have a damn good reason for cooking w/liquid fuel inside the tent in the first place, like blizzard or hurricane winds; laziness isn't a good reason.

Crag Dweller wrote: I'm worried about that ball of flame that burns for the first 30-ish seconds after you start a liquid fuel stove.

Fire it up outside, then cook inside ?

Thanks for the input, guys.

Erik,

I use a whisperlite and just picked up an XGK as well and I'm curious about your suggestion to fill up the priming cup. Wouldn't that actually make the potential for a flame up higher?

Crag Dweller wrote:....I'm curious about your suggestion to fill up the priming cup. Wouldn't that actually make the potential for a flame up higher?

It's not the priming flame you have to worry about (those suckers are tame and low, and predictable in the wind sheltered confines of a tent). No, you're true worry needs to be directed at a legit flare-up, when liquid fuel -under pressure - comes shooting out the jet nozzle after you prematurely open the fuel line. This is where you get the kind of scenes like from the flaming oil wells in that oil tycoon movie.

Filling the priming cup to the max gives you that much more time/heat/opportunity to sufficiently heat the vaporizing tube prior to opening the fuel line. Let that fuel burn down to it's absolute nothingness, until there's just a rumor of a flame left, then open the fuel line. Again, it's a cold stove sputtering pressurized liquid fuel that causes flare-ups, not the simple burn of the priming fuel.

Just remembered it, There Will Be Blood, that's the name of that movie. Or, for the older crowd, Giant.

EDIT TO ADD: I do know of people that bring a small squirt bottle of fuel just for priming. That way rather than one long priming episode, they do a couple in a row(squirt fuel in, burn it til flame is out, repeat).

Erik W wrote: It's not the priming flame you have to worry about (those suckers are tame and low, and predictable in the wind sheltered confines of a tent). No, you're true worry needs to be directed at a legit flare-up, when liquid fuel -under pressure - comes shooting out the jet nozzle after you prematurely open the fuel line. This is where you get the kind of scenes like from the flaming oil wells in that oil tycoon movie. Filling the priming cup to the max gives you that much more time/heat/opportunity to sufficiently heat the vaporizing tube prior to opening the fuel line. Let that fuel burn down to it's absolute nothingness, until there's just a rumor of a flame left, then open the fuel line. Again, it's a cold stove sputtering pressurized liquid fuel that causes flare-ups, not the simple burn of the priming fuel. Just remembered it, There Will Be Blood, that's the name of that movie. Or, for the older crowd, Giant.

Gotcha, thanks. I've had a few experiences where that priming ball of flame seemed a whole helluva a lot like what I would describe as a flare-up but I know what you're talking about.

So, it sounds like I'll be looking for a Jetboil...

Crag Dweller wrote: priming ball of flame, . So, it sounds like I'll be looking for a Jetboil...

I've had the priming ball of flame as well, but that's usually when over-filling the cup and fuel has spilled on the underside and.... well it's just a mess. But still, those flames are really tame compared to the pressurized ones.

Jetboil is great as an inside the tent stove (definitely hang it). MSR Reactor is my new favorite - a bit bigger, but more efficient, better in wind, and better at melting snow. For one night out though, Jetboils are hard to beat.

Rule #1 about a whisperlite: There is always too much fuel in the primer cup!

It's not just a flare up or ball of flame that'll get ya.

Its the evil CO (carbon monoxide). I've had it a few times, no fun and takes a long time to shrug off.

Biggest player seem to be an inefficient stove. My thought is that a wet pot, sooting, etc, any thing that gives you an orange flame is bad juju.

So...be careful!

thanks again for all the input.

let me expand on the question a bit. what do people do above 20k?

it's my understanding that the pressurization of canister stoves becomes an issue at or around that altitude. but, i know people aren't stepping outside to brew up in 60 mph winds at 20k.

Where are you off to, Crag Dweller? Alaska or abroad? For abroad, canister stoves are pretty much the standard since cans are easy to stock/store and white gas isn't readily available, if at all (at least not quality white gas anyway).

I've actually been doing a similar sort of search - for an optimum >6000m stove - so I'll pass on a quick bulletpoint list of what I've learned so far. (I've used a Jetboil at around 5500m, but I'm trying to see what would be the best best).

- cold is the enemy of canister stoves because the different fuels contained in the mix boil (vaporize) at different temps: Propane @-44F, Isobutane @10F, n-butane @31F. If you will be cooking in 15 degree temps, only the Propane and Isobutane will vaporize in the can, the n-butane will sit there like a cold cup of coffee, doing much of nothing.

- Different brand cans have different ratios of these fuels. MSR is 20%-80%-0% (prop/isobut/n-but), while primus is 20%-10%-70%. Think that over for a second, because it was an eye-opener for me. 70% of the volume of primus cans won't vaporize in the can at temps below 31F. I experienced this last time in Nepal with a Primus can and wondered why the hell my Jetboil wasn't working eventhough the can still had a ton of liquid in it.

- One way many cold weather campers overcome the above problem is by keeping the can warm, either via a heat exchanger (copper wire) or hand warmer, or whatever. I've used copper wire and hand warmers before and they both work, although the copper wire trick is spooky, as you're flirting with having a bomb in the tent with you if that can gets too hot.

- another solution to the crap boiling/vaporizing temps of n-butane is inverting the canister (which you can only do on remote canister stoves... where it is connected by a fuel line as opposed to screwing on under the stove). By inverting, the vaporized propane sits at the now-top (was-bottom) and it creates the pressure to then push the otherwise useless liquid n-butane out the now-bottom, it pushes it as a liquid through the line to the stove, which then heats the fuel in a similar vaporizing tube as with white gas stoves, and wah-la, you've got vaporized n-butane that actually burns. Same goes for the isobutane. Stove companies don't advertise this, as they just certify their stoves for gas feed (meaning upright can), but it's a common practice to flip that can in cold temps. Actually, the Jetboil Helios is specifically designed for inverting (unfortunately it's for group camping, but check it out). You do have to 'prime' the stove though (just as with liquid gas stoves) so that the vaporizing tube is hot. So start with can upright, and then once stove is good and going, invert can. Of course the stoves with all the buzz - i.e., jetboil, reactor, etc. - can't do this as the can is fixed upright under the burner.

- I mentioned in a comment aboce that I love the MSR Reactor, but it does have some negatives. First, it's gotten a rep for being heavy on the carbon monoxide factor.... as in it's the worst in class in terms of CO. I haven't had an issue with it, but that freaks me out. Second, you can't flip that can. If you have an MSR can, great, but if Primus is the only one you can get your hands on, you're going to be working the heat exchanger angle and that always freaks me out... especially after having seen the Hurt Locker. Hence why I am looking for a primo stove setup.

Ummm, there's more I think I have in my head, but all this talk of carbon monoxide is making me sleepy.

hope the above helps. if you find any new info, pass it my way and I'll do the same.

-Erik

With the few times I've used my whisperlite in the tent I have an empty pot on hand so if flame gets out of control I can smother the flame with the upside down pot. Note: I haven't actually tested this method, but it makes me feel better; just like clipping a rusted 1/4" bolt does.

Great comments on priming by Erik. The other thing you can do is get some fire ribbon, or fire starter paste (comes in a tube like toothpaste) and put a big gob on the pre-heat tube and light. But as Erik said, make sure it's hot otherwise you'll have a pressurized flame. Also with canister stoves you can put the canister, or whole stove, in your sleeping bag with you. Although this helps with morning coffee, it does nothing for dinner if the stove has been in your pack all day.

I would be wary of trying to cook inside your tent with a Whisper-bomb or other liquid fuel stove unless you get the fuel vaporizer hot outside the tent, get it burning well, and then bring it inside. I've seen way too many of those things leak fuel into a puddle Exxon Valdez style. It's not worth burning up a tent, your bags, and possibly you as well.

Crag Dweller wrote:what do people do above 20k? it's my understanding that the pressurization of canister stoves becomes an issue at or around that altitude. but, i know people aren't stepping outside to brew up in 60 mph winds at 20k.

Check out House and his gear. Talks about his stove, which is an MSR windpro, at around 14:30:

youtube.com/watch?v=oIkmYiw…

I'm a fan of the MSR windpro. Got one mostly because someone gave me a case of the aerosol type gas canisters which are way unstable on a pocket rocket. Having a remote canister, away from the stove, makes a bunch of sense to me from a safety and functional viewpoint. If I was heading up high, I'd probably take one.

I've used a white gas type stove a fair bit at, say, 14k to 20k (Asia, So. America, Alaska, Canada) and the Whisperlight was my main stove on those trips (although friends used the XGK a fair bit too). Alot of it is just "knowing your stove". I could prime and light a stove with reasonalble accuracy, inside a tent or no. Mostly, though, seems like in years past that folks used a vestibule to cook in, which at least limited your CO and flare up risk a bit. Could still operate the stove while lying in a sleeping bag but have the stove set outside in the vestibule. These smaller, lighter tents, kinda don't have a vestibule, so...

As far as something besides gas in the spirit cup (like priming paste or the like), I've not seen any folks use it. We all just got used to bleeding the stove a bit until the cup was part full, lighting it, and, getting the tube hot enough to vaporize the gas. Never really had too much flare up, especially if you watch the gas come out closely, and see that the cup is only part full. Priming paste, etc. just seems like something extra to pack, and, you won't find any at most destinations where you'll be using a stove up high anyhow (as well as not being able to legally transport it on a plane too).

Switched in recent years to an MSR Simmerlite and used it with auto gas in South America with great success (not that MSR would recommend that). Small tent, but, we could cook outside as we didn't have super bad weather (lean out the door). Small, light and easy to control. Also sits way lower to the ground so, more stable and easier to block any wind. Fits in a pot better too. Efficient as far as gas use, and, still to boil quite quick. And...quiet.

Anyhoo, some thoughts...

Cheers!

Brian in SLC wrote: I'm a fan of the MSR windpro.

Thanks for voicing your opinion on the WindPro, Brian. It's at the top of my list right now in terms of the next climbing stove (it and the Primus ETA Packlite), so it's good to see real feedback from climbers (as opposed to the backpacking crowd who primarily review it for under 10k feet). Optimally I want to convert either one of those into a hanging stove setup (not permanent hanging stove, but having the option to quickly hang when in a tent). I need to get over to REI and tinker with the two for a bit, see if that would work.

Don't know if anyone's noticed (it was new to me until a couple days ago), but Coleman's backpacking stoves can change change between white gas or canisters. The stove is the same, you just hook whatever fuel you want onto a specific attachment and then join that into the fuel line. It's interesting. Actually, in correction to a statement I made above, Coleman instructs for those stoves to use the can inverted so it's still a liquid feed. Wonder why REI can't do that for the WindPro/Simmerlite.

Thanks for the video, Brian. That was very helpful information.

Erik, I'm preparing to do Denali and then I'll set my sights on peaks in the Andes. I'm thinking Peru right now.

Check out the EtaPacklite from primus.
A complete package. The can can be inverted plus it has its own wind screen and heat exchanger (like the jetboil). Another plus is the pot is aluminum with a titanium liner. This means you have the conduction efficiancy (sp?) of aluminum but the titanium is protecting you from cooking directly on that aluminum. If you have a white gas stove you can use this pot with it, upping the efficancy. Better for high elevation. They also sell a hanging kit for the stove if you desire it.

brice

Erik W wrote: Wonder why REI can't do that for the WindPro/Simmerlite.

Dual stoves are not good at burning either fuel (canister/liquid). Thats why not manny make them any more.

Have used a white gas Dragonfly up to just over 18k but always put it in a pit dug in/below the tent vestibule (Bibler Torre'). I don't see much reason not to do it this way (unless your tent doesn't have a vestibule of course).

Maybe I'm a bad person but when I've done a mountain with a lot of potential for windy cold weather like Denali I've taken both a whisperlite and a Jetboil. At or above 14,500 I spend most of my time cooking inside the tent and I want to keep the accidents to a minimum. I always find ways to keep the gas canister warm so that I get the maximum use out of each tin while keeping the safety margin high. I'll use the MSR stove during the day and outside when the weather is good so that I get maximum benefit from its fuel efficiency.

If I were to be given just one choice of a stove to bring though I would take a Jetboil because it is safer and almost as fuel efficient as a liquid gas stove. And it warms up my Bibler tent when it is nasty outside. Same goes for South America trips.