Are sport climbs of a more moderate grade desirable?

WAY TO GO JEFF!

Congrats on climbing so often each week. Congrats for being active. Congrats for loving to climb, but also having a life outside of the sport.

You spoke for many of us on this board.

My vote: bolt whatever you want to bolt and if you think its a lame route, then ignore it and stay away from it. I ignore your "cool" stuff, so you can ignore mine!

I'm just about to give up on this issue, due to the fact that we just can't answer the question asked without bringing up the "beginner" word. What does it take to make one realize that not only beginners; but experienced climbers will enjoy these routes if they only allow themselves to. I guess it goes to the saying: You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Reading the entire thread must be out of the question too, since I keep seeing the same non-relivent comments comming up.

Rating / Approx Number of Routes
5.6 / 1
5.8 / 1
5.9 / 5
5.10 / 37
5.11 / 46
5.12 / 27
5.13 / 2
The above ratings are from the original post, slightly over a year ago.
It is funny that the 5.6 is the most often led route in the canyon.
This leads me to believe that if a 5.5 was installed, it would replace the 5.6 as the most popular.
To those who have responded with what could be considered elitist comments, what does this tell you?
I do, however, understand where you are coming from with your opinions and I respect your valid views.
I greatly appreciate everyones feedback, regardless of whether it was pro or con.
I'm off to the canyon to work a new line I've spotted (on tr).
Nope, it's likely a twelve. Sigh.

katja wrote: My vote: bolt whatever you want to bolt and if you think its a lame route, then ignore it and stay away from it. I ignore your "cool" stuff, so you can ignore mine!

NOOOO!!!??
DO NOT BOLT WHATEVER YOU WANT! That is NOT cool, and it is that type of selfish and inconsiderate mentality that gives sport climbing in general a bad name.
- If the route takes gear (even if it's a little run) - DON'T BOLT
- If the route is less than fabulous - DON'T BOLT
- If some one has, or may have already, climbed it - DON'T BOLT
Remember, bolting PERMANENTLY alters the resource that IS our sport. It's like giving the rock a tattoo, a decision worth putting some thought into, and something you don't want to turn out totally lame.

Happy climbing :)

caughtinside:

Most climbers that would appreciate Tom Hanson's efforts of putting up a few more moderates are not concerened about your respect. Others commitment levels vary as in every sport and may or may not come into play on this issue. Nobody has said anything about being entitled to anything in this entire thread; or being too busy for that matter! Try to be more understanding, we are not asking for anything. It was offered as a way to give back to the climbing community. To be more specific, the Castlewood Canyon climbing community.

Sam Benedict wrote: Remember, bolting PERMANENTLY alters the resource that IS our sport. It's like giving the rock a tattoo, a decision worth putting some thought into, and something you don't want to turn out totally lame.

Despite the WWF avatar, this is a smart man. :) Couldn't agree more. I don't object to easier bolted lines, so long as they have some redeeming value. Could it be that many striking lines are of higher difficulty? Perhaps an inspiration for us all to climb and improve. Another contrived squeeze job of whatever difficulty is the last thing any area needs.

Here's my ten cents...

Each crag has a local ethic, some crags require only natural attempts at pro, some are bolted. I think the one general protection code which can co-exist with all variations of local protection ethics is that an already existing climb should be left in the condition of its first ascent. Climbers are then welcome to attempt it or leave it alone until they feel comfortable attempting it - regardless of the grade. First ascents can be put up using the local code regardless of the grade. Sewing up 5.4's? If local ethic say yes then I suppose it's okay - but it sounds like murder of the possible to me.

Of course if the climb is overprotected from its first ascent then historical precedence suggests that it may be okay to pare it down a bit! But this generally happens when someone places a piton(s) or bolt(s) at a no piton or bolt area.

Sorry, but climbing has a long hard apprenticeship, and there are no real shortcuts. We wouldn't want any new people to think that there are - for the sake of the sport.

John Langston wrote:Moderate means in the middle doesn't it? So why are you talking about 5.5 to 5.7? 5.10 is moderate by all standards in sport climbing. That word is getting misused so much that it's losing its meaning.

That's almost a subject for a new post....or has it already been posted?

I think it is pretty safe to state that the realm of moderates pretty much ends at 5.9; hence the letter grades starting up at 5.10. Easy is a matter of perspective.

There are some intrinsic geologic factors at work here:
1. Most Sport Climbing terrain exists because it was too unprotectable for the years and years that Trad was the only option. For the most part, steepness was a big factor with that.

2. As a general rule, Sport Climbing areas are usually at least vertical.
(Red Rock Canyon Open Space is an exception to that rule, as it is a sport climbing on slabs area.)

3. Just think how big the holds would have to be for Vertical Stone to be 5.5, 5.6. That is almost unimaginable. The holds would have to be incut, closely spaced ladder rungs - (again, we're talking vertical stone here).

4. Therefore, at all of our traditional sport crags, the opportunities for this kind of route are very few and far between; if they exist at all.

That leaves us with actually searching for 5.5 - 5.6 terrain that isn't already a climb someone did in the past 75 years, even if it was soloed or sparsely protected; but at the same time a worthy line. Such terrain, if it exists, may be rarer than 5.15 testpieces.

Mike Lane wrote:4. Therefore, at all of our traditional sport crags, the opportunities for this kind of route are very few and far between; if they exist at all.

"Traditional sport crags". Good stuff.

Ooof...
Kinda got lost in alliteration there.
Sort of like this:

"I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some ... people out there in our nation don't have maps and uh, I believe that our, ah, education like such as in South Africa, and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and I believe that they should, uh, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., or should help South Africa, it should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for our children."

But in my defense, I've got sport climbs at Castlewood that will be 20 years old this year. By traditional sport climb area, I meant that we all pretty much know what to expect when we go to one, and that if you can't climb harder than 5.8 you're probably not going to find much. But that has more to do with the rock than people's egos.

Tom, I agree with your observation. I think part of the problem is that we had so many chopping threats early on. We bolted well enough so we could dog a route into submission. But we also made sure that the bolts were spaced far enough apart, then when any of our critics tried to onsight, they would likely be publicly humiliated. So I'm rebolting some of my oldest routes, especially the moderates.

Some examples of the rare areas where my family and friends can jump on fun routes all day are Maple, The Trestles (exit 38), Owens River Gorge, Clark Canyon, Sport Park, and Castle Rock SP, Idaho. We've recently been working hard to make our home crag as good.

A few days ago, up by Deck Chairs, a climber asked me if there were any routes at Golden Cliffs that were not run out. Since I'd just spent the past forty days upgrading, it was my reward to show him some worth being proud of.

I posted a few of ours upgrades and some older ones on Mountain Proj:

mountainproject.com/v/color…

mountainproject.com/v/color…

mountainproject.com/v/color…

Ken,
I like your list of "fun" areas where a group with diverse abilities can all be out leading routes. I would add Holcolmb Valley to the list and Vantage/Frenchman's to the list as well. Both of these areas have a wealth of more moderate climbs that are steep and aesthetic.

Rick Shull wrote:I would add Holcolmb Valley to the list and Vantage/Frenchman's to the list as well.

That's a good point, The Feathers area at Vantage has close to twenty bolted routes from 5.5 up to 5.10d, with most in the 5.6 to 5.9 range.

Ken Trout wrote: We've recently been working hard to make our home crag as good. A few days ago, up by Deck Chairs, a climber asked me if there were any routes at Golden Cliffs that were not run out. Since I'd just spent the past forty days upgrading, it was my reward to show him some worth being proud of.

Ken, you and Tom are to be commended for all your work at the local Denver crags. I'd say you both have quite a lot to be proud of. This is one of those classic cases of the many benefitting from the efforts of the very few.

In response to Tom's original question, I think the obvious answer is yes, more accessable moderate sport routes would definitely be used by the climbing community, especially those of us who are leading at the moderate grades, working up to more difficult climbs, but find the gym environment tiresome. I think it would also take some of the pressure off the classics, spreading the crowds out more.

If there was an effort to do additional development on moderate sport routes at Castlewood or Table, I'd definitely be interested in supporting with time and/or $$.

I must admit that i havent read through the entire long thread but i wanted to point out that there are sport crags with TONS of well equipt moderates which are bolted and maintained by strong climbers... Im fairly local at Rumney NH and there are great sport climbs from 5.3 to 5.15... ive run it to the strongest of strong climbers running a lap on a super moderate just cause the movement is fun... As a guide and instructor this hlelps me greatly when im teaching a lead class, the climber can focus on the hardware while fairly relaxed... A big thanks goes out to those who donate the time and hardware to putting these routes up...

Darren Snipes wrote:When I first started climbing sport climbing started at 5.10 and even those were really considered warm ups for the "real" sport climbs. I have a hard time thinking of anything less as sport climbing.

Agreed.

John J. Glime wrote:For the sake of argument, aren't you guys just being elitest?

I have always failed to see why elitism is a bad thing.

AGree that the focus of sport climbs is intensity and extreme face climbing moves in places trad climbs would have aided or bolted past due to no cracks for 'pro. Thus due to the nature of the climbs and the main interest of those setting the routes, there are few to none in the easy-moderate range anywhere. And it's not their responsibility to create them. It would be nice to have some easy ones, but then again if the route is in lower grades it might be easily trad lead too. Thus the complaint about useless bolts next to an easy trad crack. A conundrum woven in a riddle it is. Easy slab sport seems to be it. But a really nice comfy 5.4 climb with a roof move would be nice for new aporties to work out the quickdraws on for a start. Wish there were more of them, especially for newbies who come and occupy the easiest 5.9 they can find for hours on end as a dozen go for it.

Arnold Braker wrote:I have always failed to see why elitism is a bad thing.

I have failed to see why being a moderate or beginner is bad and not feeling sketched out on a climb at any level is a bad thing.

Tom, to address your initial question, yes I do think that more *QUALITY* moderate lines would be well traveled and MUCH appreciated.

Everybody has to start leading somewhere. This isn't a competition to see who's more of a badass than the other guy. There is a desire for bolted lines in the 5.6 - 5.9 range that aren't run out. I know lots of people disagree with me but I see NO reason for a sport climb to be runout at any level. If a bolt is skipped because there is natural pro that's one thing, but running it out because its easy seems a bit ridiculous to me, think about the majority of who's leading that, not people who are comfortable at the grade. And personally, I'd rather somebody like Tom, with his years of experience and decision making, to be bolting these lines rather than Jimmy New-Fry doing it because he wants another climb at his grade.

RRC is one of my favorites because it has diversity when I take new friends or when I want to push myself in the same day, which is the reason I don't care much for the Wood and am intimidated by Devil's Head.

Your work is and certainly will be appreciated Tom (and others) and if you are looking for some $$ or some help I know plenty who would be willing to pitch in!

Wehling: it is ironic that Devils Head is intimidating to you; yet you live at its base. I can understand it though, as up until now the median grade up there has to be .11C or D. Its probably ok to mention now there is a new section of the mountain that will be described in Tod's revised guidebook coming out soon. The walk is much easier, and there are dozens of true moderate sport routes. In fact, several are are under 5.8
Nuff said for now, its been a secret for several years.