Yet another cinch warning (yes, i dropped him 20+ feet)

Daryl Ill still have you belay me any day!

Mistakes, some costly, have occurred on all devices. Its not about the devices, its about the belayers and their techniques and attentiveness. Choose wisely.

Thanks for sharing your experience Dude and way to be constructive about it.

Thanks Daryl,

I appreciate your insights and I especially admire your courage to share them.

Thanks!

Scott

obsessed wrote:For what it's worth, I was dropped to the deck from about 3/4 of the way up the wall at the BRC about 6 months back. He was using a Gri-Gri and he wasn't paying attention. He apologized, but he seemed more concerned with his rope burn, then he was with me hitting the deck. The fall screwed up my back (again) for a couple of weeks. We don't climb together anymore. What I took away from the incident: 1. It wasn't the Gri-Gri, it was the belayer, 2. I didn't foresee the belayer changing his ways anytime in the near future. Gri-Gri or ATC, I wasn't climbing with him again. What does this mean? Hell, if I know. I thought I would add it. Daryl thanks for looking into the issue. I am glad everyone was alright.

I've been hearing of a lot of these types of incidents lately. While this is kind of going off subject of the OP, I think it's something to notice that more and more people aren't paying attention as a belayer - with a locking-assist or a non-locking device - AND that part of it is that they really don't know how to belay properly.
The other day at Movement gym (in Boulder) there was a kid lead belaying with an ATC. He was acting like it was a locking-assist and totally didn't have either hand fully on the rope, as well as he was chatting with his other friend on the ground and wasn't looking up to his climber. I only noticed his lack of belaying when his climber was halfway up the wall already and I freaked out on the kid a bit and showed him that he had to have his brake hand on at ALL TIMES. He said he's never used an ATC before (only a gri-gri) and he's never heard of a 'brake hand'. !!! ahhhhh !!! That kind of shit freaks me out that he can climb at a gym and have supposedly taken the belay test (for toprope only he said) - it's bad enough in a gym, but at least you have some padding - just think if he climbs outside!
In my opinion, as gyms are one of the first lines of defense between new climbers and climbing in general, they need to be much more strict and take the time to really check out each new climber coming in.

I'm not saying that it was the case in this instance but the majority of the time when a grigri or a Cinch doesn't catch, the device was feeded backwards, from what I have observed.

Daryl,

Thanks for posting this up. I'm really glad your climber wasn't hurt. I'm heading to the gym tonight and will try to out your "thumb on the whammy bar" technique to see if I can recreate the slippage. Anyone out there want to be a guinea pig for me? Ha! Seriously, we have done tons of testing and fall simulations using the now recommended pinch the hole technique that we recommend. We recommend it for one reason: we have not yet been able to a induce a belay failure of any kind when using this technique. We just can't make it happen.

Despite this, many European climbers and gyms are recommending another method where the Cinch is actually rigged up-side-down and the rope to the climber comes off the bottom rather than the top. I've tried this and it works very well, but because of the counter-intuitive and difficult way of feeding rope to the leader, I can't imagine anyone adopting it.

Will work on it tonight as well though and report back tomorrow.

As always, please feel free to call me on my cell phone if you have any questions.

Climb safe,
Mal
303/909-6067

^^^^^^^

That (and the fact that they make great stuff) is the reason I continue to buy from Trango.

Again, thanks all for the constructive and/or supportive posts. This was exactly what i was hoping for - constructive input that we can all learn from.

Malcolm,
Thanks allot for chiming in. Wish you were closer so i could meet you up there and go over it and even volunteer for the guinea pig role. ;) I really think it came down to me being in the position to "unlock" the cinch when the fall occurred. After he unweighted the rope, in order to give him some movement slack (a few inches normally), I 'opened' the cinch by pressing the top of the release lever pivot with my thumb. Moving my hand forward to the position to do this removed most of my braking hand from the rope. This and ducking (read:losing sight of climber/missing fall), & dodging the rock all at once is what caused the prolonged fall. Again, all my fault as the belayer, I should have slid back off the device and grabbed brake as soon as I ducked.

I went over it in my garage last night using a duffel bag, and replaying it in my head. I know this is what happened for sure now. I still think the cinch is a very useful and clever device but perhaps i should go back to something more natural for me. I've had similar events take place while using my grigri, in fact one where i was struck with a rock and knocked out into a swing away from the belay 'ledge'. I'm thinking, with the grigri/cupping method, it's more natural to let go of the 'override' since it's my pinky i'm squeezing inward to unlock the device, vice my thumb pushing out.

Evidently, i've analyzed this thing to the point of agony and need to have a beer and just relax a little. As others have told me, no one was hurt, and i did what i was there to do; stop the fall. I just keep thinking, though, what if... what if that ground was a few feet higher, etc? What's an acceptable margin of error here? Clearly, not this, imho but one other person there said that since he didn't crater, it was within the acceptable margin of error. Not my feelings at all. I should have stopped him within a body length. Not going for the scarlet letter merit badge or anything here.. just trying to make sure I improve as a result of this. I know i will be a better belayer after this;... just have to find someone willing to let me belay him/her. Oh wait!... Mike, you're the man! Thanks buddy! ;)

Hey, Daryl, I'm sure you'll be belaying me on Babo! I'm looking forward to it!

Running the math makes this 20 foot fall from 25 feet off the ground seem less-than shocking to me. Back-of-the-envelope calculations, for your consideration:

+ 2 feet of slip from the Cinch, allowing momentum to build.
+ 5 feet slack from the belayer standing away from the wall.
+ 5 feet of belayer's upward movement/pull from the rope (weight differences between belayer and climber?).
+ 5 feet of rope stretch, give or take.
+ other factors not mentioned in the write up?
----------------------------------------------
= roughly 15 to 20 feet of drop

I have no idea what really happened, but an off-balance belayer standing away from the wall with a climber taking a fall only 25 feet off the deck could easily leave the climber 5 feet off the ground no matter what belay device was employed.

Daryl Allan wrote:Again, thanks all for the constructive and/or supportive posts. This was exactly what i was hoping for - constructive input that we can all learn from...

Ok, so can we move onto the flaming posts full of speculation and blame? j/k

It was pretty brave posting about the near accident. As you clearly know, you risked taking of a lot of criticism from the internet quarterbacks. Thanks for taking the risk in the interest of a productive discussion and the opportunity for everyone to learn from your experience.

Crag Dweller wrote: Ok, so can we move onto the flaming posts full of speculation and blame? j/k

lmao! Let 'er rip... ;)

Babo!! Can't wait!! :)

Someone lists a topic as "Yet another cinch warning" and now we can't hint that part of his fall could of been related to other elements?

If the goal here is really to have a productive discussion so that people can learn from experience, then what's wrong with discussing that perhaps there is more to the picture than defective gear? Seems to me that a lot of factors play into causing a 20 foot drop when using a dynamic belay system.

Daryl,
Beer is good because my guess is that you can't possibly get any closer to the solution without having a high-def, slow-mo video of the incident. Didn't make it to the gym tonight. Maybe tomorrow. I'll post up.
Mal

PS: One of the reasons I like the pinch-the-Cinch technique is that it leaverd the majority of my fingers on the brake strand of the rope. This is the way I learned to belay in 1968 and is very intuitive. While I haven't had an incident like yours, I'd like to think that I'd respond instinctively and squeeze the brake strand like a madman.

I must have missed something here, as the pinch the pivot method seems only to work for ON Lead!...not for toprope belaying in a gym, etc. It's all facing the wrong direction for rope movement to use that method. I also tried the leg loop carabiner as a lowering release assist. It also did little, as I'm trying to hold a hand up in the air or reach across my body to get a brake action again instead of just pulling down towards my brake hand hips. Have had my Cinch ever since they came out and still am not very pleased with its action.

Crag Dweller wrote: As you clearly know, you risked taking of a lot of criticism from the internet quarterbacks.

he did try a Hail Mary; or was that the climber??

Daryl Allan wrote:Again, thanks all for the constructive and/or supportive posts. This was exactly what i was hoping for - constructive input that we can all learn from. Malcolm, Thanks allot for chiming in. Wish you were closer so i could meet you up there and go over it and even volunteer for the guinea pig role. ;) I really think it came down to me being in the position to "unlock" the cinch when the fall occurred. After he unweighted the rope, in order to give him some movement slack (a few inches normally), I 'opened' the cinch by pressing the top of the release lever pivot with my thumb. Moving my hand forward to the position to do this removed most of my braking hand from the rope. This and ducking (read:losing sight of climber/missing fall), & dodging the rock all at once is what caused the prolonged fall. Again, all my fault as the belayer, I should have slid back off the device and grabbed brake as soon as I ducked. I went over it in my garage last night using a duffel bag, and replaying it in my head. I know this is what happened for sure now. I still think the cinch is a very useful and clever device but perhaps i should go back to something more natural for me. I've had similar events take place while using my grigri, in fact one where i was struck with a rock and knocked out into a swing away from the belay 'ledge'. I'm thinking, with the grigri/cupping method, it's more natural to let go of the 'override' since it's my pinky i'm squeezing inward to unlock the device, vice my thumb pushing out. Evidently, i've analyzed this thing to the point of agony and need to have a beer and just relax a little. As others have told me, no one was hurt, and i did what i was there to do; stop the fall. I just keep thinking, though, what if... what if that ground was a few feet higher, etc? What's an acceptable margin of error here? Clearly, not this, imho but one other person there said that since he didn't crater, it was within the acceptable margin of error. Not my feelings at all. I should have stopped him within a body length. Not going for the scarlet letter merit badge or anything here.. just trying to make sure I improve as a result of this. I know i will be a better belayer after this;... just have to find someone willing to let me belay him/her. Oh wait!... Mike, you're the man! Thanks buddy! ;)

Daryl,

I am gathering you have been struck by a rock previously and almost struck during this event. Perhaps you should consider belaying from a safer position in terms of rock fall. Moving you position in, left, or right a few feet can reduce your risk of getting hit by a falling rock.

Daryl: Glad to hear you were wearing your lid. :)

Glad to see these kinds of stories shared with the community. It continues to amaze me the number of people belaying, especially in the gym, with their hand held continuously over the end of the release lever on a GriGri (making it easier to feed slack). The climber is OFF BELAY when you have your hand in that position. The Cinch seemed to be less prone to that tendency as there's not this nice comfortable thing to set your hand on than is the case with a GriGri, but as was noted above there could still be ways to accidentally defeat the device.