Set your placements or die

obsessed wrote:"Rules are stupid." I concur...except when they are my rules.

Yup, think outside the box, use knotted webbing for pro, make your own big bros out of sawed up 2x4s.

Competence keeps you alive!

3 or 4 good yanks on a piece generates more force than most pieces will feel in a typical fall. You can over analyze and make your placements worse by messing with them. Learn to place each piece so that it can take a whip and still be removed by hand and you have begun to learn the art of protecting yourself.

Nope, I almost never set my pieces. If a long runner won't keep it from getting upward pull from the rope and I can't set some sort of directional, then I might give it just enough to stay in place, otherwise I place it so it comes out easily by lifting it, without a tool. I never set my cams, ever.
If you know how to properly place gear you absolutely do not have to hammer it into place. Yes there are exceptions, but they are exceptions not the rule. 21 years of practice might give me a different look at it than somebody with less experience.
I want to keep moving, not hanging out for an hour or two waiting for my second to wrestle with every single piece.
Of course it's all subjective, so do it however you feel comfortable.

A friend of mine i was belaying a couple weeks back took a fall and, in doing so, somehow managed to get one of his testicles caught under his leg loop. It turned out to be a very slight pendulum as he was up and left [slightly] from the bolt. I don't know if his harness wasn't fitting right or what but he somehow went top heavy and inverted... welllll, when this happened, i guess his nut almost got ripped out of the sack.

He made a horrible shriek that could probably only be reproduced by branding a cat and went immediately into the fetal position while still hanging upside down. I started to lower him down, still upside-down and fetal, and helped him right enough to lower him into a semi-laying/leaning, tragically defeated heap on the ground. After he responded to my question of "what the f**k just happened up there?!?", i shuddered a bit, stumbled back and just covered my mouth with both hands in shock.

I couldn't think of a single thing to say to help the situation. Annnnd i'm not really sure about how this fits into the .. oh yeah. Someone said earlier something about pulling their nuts before a climb and, well.. oh forget it.

[shudders]

does the title of this forum seem a bit melodramatic to anyone else?

your mom is melodramatic.

Daryl Allan wrote:A friend of mine i was belaying a couple weeks back took a fall and, in doing so, somehow managed to get one of his testicles caught under his leg loop. It turned out to be a very slight pendulum as he was up and left [slightly] from the bolt. I don't know if his harness wasn't fitting right or what but he somehow went top heavy and inverted... welllll, when this happened, i guess his nut almost got ripped out of the sack. He made a horrible shriek that could probably only be reproduced by branding a cat and went immediately into the fetal position while still hanging upside down. I started to lower him down, still upside-down and fetal, and helped him right enough to lower him into a semi-laying/leaning, tragically defeated heap on the ground. After he responded to my question of "what the f**k just happened up there?!?", i shuddered a bit, stumbled back and just covered my mouth with both hands in shock. I couldn't think of a single thing to say to help the situation. Annnnd i'm not really sure about how this fits into the .. oh yeah. Someone said earlier something about pulling their nuts before a climb and, well.. oh forget it. [shudders]

Damn.

Spider Savage wrote:Someone was giving me crap in another thread about my rules for placing pro so I'm calling them out here: 1. When you place protection, stoppers, hexes, cam's, give them a good hard yank, or two or three. See if you can just pull the thing straight out with a downward pull. Sometimes you'll find it pops out on that third try. (The reason for this is obvious, right?) And of course you're setting it for the downward pull being mindful of forces and shifts as you climb past the piece. 2. If your second is cursing you on cleaning your pro you're climbing safe. That nut tool should get used regularly. So there's your troll. Go ahead and look foolish.

HAHAHAHA FAIL!!!111

Also, yanking on nuts for an OUTward pull would be much more useful since lead falls don't happen perfectly straight down. i would wager a guess that nuts popping is far more a result of outward than downward.

remember who is belaying your ass when you treat your second like a bitch. i'd short rope your ass.

TedV wrote:Nope, I almost never set my pieces. If a long runner won't keep it from getting upward pull from the rope and I can't set some sort of directional, then I might give it just enough to stay in place, otherwise I place it so it comes out easily by lifting it, without a tool. I never set my cams, ever.

Spoken like a true sandstone climber. Way to bring focus to the thread! :)

Jake D. wrote: remember who is belaying your ass when you treat your second like a bitch. i'd short rope your ass.

+1

Abram Herman wrote: It seems like if you're pulling on a piece with only your hand to see if it's gonna hold, it's probably not a piece you should trust. Yanking on it with your hand isn't even gonna come close to a fall force, so if you're testing to see if it pulls by yanking on it, there's a good chance it will definitely pull if you fall on it, but that's just my $.02 (I do yank on cams, though, just to see if they're biting and engaging the rock the way I want them to; I only yank on nuts to set them so they won't just fall out easily)

Aw c'mon, admit it the only way to really know if it's gonna hold is to take a short fall on each piece right after placing it before moving up to place the next one. I would love to see a video of someone doing that on a pitch sometime.

Woodchuck ATC wrote: Aw c'mon, admit it the only way to really know if it's gonna hold is to take a short fall on each piece right after placing it before moving up to place the next one. I would love to see a video of someone doing that on a pitch sometime.

I've seen it before, I think they called it "aid climbing", or something like that ;)

i'm surprised that nobody has really mentioned this, but, generally it is best to look for a placement in the crack, such that the stopper drops down a little bit BEHIND a constriction, such that it is keyed in and can't be pulled out with an outward force. doing this, you don't have to yank on it and rely on molding the aluminum to the crack. this makes the piece reliable, yet easy to clean.

there are some cases where you might have to yank and set it, but a keen eye will usually find a better alternative, whether it be adding an extra sling, setting an opposing piece, or finding a keyed-in placement.

takes some practice, but a very good skill to have, particularly if you are pushing yourself on gear routes.

Spider Savage wrote:Someone was giving me crap in another thread about my rules for placing pro so I'm calling them out here: 1. When you place protection, stoppers, hexes, cam's, give them a good hard yank, or two or three. See if you can just pull the thing straight out with a downward pull. Sometimes you'll find it pops out on that third try. (The reason for this is obvious, right?) And of course you're setting it for the downward pull being mindful of forces and shifts as you climb past the piece. 2. If your second is cursing you on cleaning your pro you're climbing safe. That nut tool should get used regularly. So there's your troll. Go ahead and look foolish.

So here's the situation I'm picturing that resulted in this thread, Spider. You're cleaning a pitch led my someone else, struggling (and "cursing") like crazy to remove all of the passive pro because your leader fused all of the pieces to the rock. When you got to the anchor and asked why everything was set so hard, you got a response that looks a lot like your OP. So, you decided to hit up Mtn Proj to a) see how the climbing community felt about unnecessarily set gear, and b) make a point to your leader. Accurate at all?

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JJ Brunner wrote: I think you're really cool and all toots krumdick, but you should go suck yourself.

Don't feed the trolls! Use the flag button on the right side of each post and you'd likely get rid of the likes of "Toots" and "Pat Erly." Personally, I think the ACs can be kind of funny, but if you're really offended by them, I suggest using the "Flag" button instead of feeding them.

--Marc

Marc- Not at all accurate.

I learned to lead in 1974. Hexes & Stoppers only. Solid pro set solid. We learned to put them in for keeps and then get them out fast. It takes practice. On several occasions I have quickly removed pro that other climbers spent a long time on and given up. Especially cams that "walk-in."

Since spring loaded cams were invented I have frequently seen leaders with limited experience plug things and go only to have them fall out later. On good clean rock "plug-n-go" may be fine but if there is surface grit, growths, or disintigration then setting it hard gets it to bite through the choss.

The lazy placement style the comes from placing cams may, in some, translate to the same style in placing stoppers.

Good thread. Good discussion. Good people all.

Spider,

I think its funny how this just got transformed into a traditionalist ethics thread.

Anyway, if your point in making this thread is to emphasize that not all trad gear is plug and play, then I'd agree with you. There is a need to evaluate every piece you set.

However, how this is done is definetly situation dependent. Cams almost never need more than a wiggle and tug. Most times with passive pro, a good tug and visual evaluation is great. Rarely, welding the nut is a better option. It relies on experience, which, apparently, you have, so I'm surprised you'd make such a blanket statement.

So, as to your point of evaluating each placement, I totally agree. I think you wording/title, however, mislead the intended audience (learning trad climbers) from your original point and instill an arbitrary and potentially counterproductive "rule" upon the impressionable. But...I also think that was by design.

So, good thread, good banter, good people,
Evan

Abram Herman wrote: I've seen it before, I think they called it "aid climbing", or something like that ;)

Good choice Abram. I say let's all go aid climb on our gear placements until we are convinced we are doing a good job.!!

Step one: slot nut
Step two: climb

JJ Brunner wrote: I'll flag your mom.

Ummm....OK.

Woodchuck ATC wrote: Good choice Abram. I say let's all go aid climb on our gear placements until we are convinced we are doing a good job.!!

Actually I have! Jim Erickson and Mike Munger told me to, and I figure I should do anything they say :) Definitely helped me with speed of placements, as well as what I should and shouldn't trust