Losing Weight While Getting Stronger.....

Intriguing stuff, EVS. What kind of sources is it from?

I went to medical herbalist and nutrition school here in Boulder. I have over 640 hours of classroom time studying this stuff and I really respect my teachers so I believe all the info to be correct (mostly because of my personal experience and experimentation) . I have all the reference material including researchers names and study numbers at home, if you're really interested I could dig them up, but a search on pubmed.gov is a good place to start.

As far as milk, I personally don't think 99% of humans should be consuming dairy products, and anything other than protein right after a workout will kill your HGH. But keep in mind, an HGH curve lasts about 90 minutes from when it's triggered, so it's fine to eat carbs and some complex sugars after that point.

EVS, what is your opinion on the 4:1 carbs to protein ratio intake immediately after working out? it seems to have a fair amount of literature backing it. do you think it is better to wait for an hour or so, and then drink a carb/protein shake?

I think it's pretty well accepted that the ideal aerobic, or 'fat-burning' zone for exercise is 60% to 85% of your maximum heart rate (max rate is usually 220bpm minus your age for men), and keeping it there for at least 30 minutes. It's not a hard-and-fast rule, and there are lots of exceptions based on individual physiology.

But generally, above 85% of your max heart rate, you may still be burning some fat, but your body cannot burn fat efficiently enough to meet the energy needs for maximal exercise. It turns to muscle glycogen and glucose in the bloodstream for energy, which goes fast. Then, when that's gone, it turns to protein catabolism for energy.

I think one can climb aerobically, but you need to find rest spots to let your heart rate go back down into the aerobic zone after a crux. I read an interview with Steve Hong years ago, who said he climbs in the gym with a heart rate monitor, trying to find rest spots, knowing that above 150bpm or so he wasn't 'resting' but was still burning up valuable muscle glucose/glycogen.

Anaerobic exercise is still great for building muscle and increasing VO2max. And muscle cells are the 'fat burners' inside the body. But my point was that during maximal exercise like climbing through a crux, or running at 185bpms, you're mainly burning sugars and proteins, not fats.

slim wrote:EVS, what is your opinion on the 4:1 carbs to protein ratio intake immediately after working out? it seems to have a fair amount of literature backing it. do you think it is better to wait for an hour or so, and then drink a carb/protein shake?

different methods for different goals.

EVS is saying the the HGH curve stimulates your metabolism and allows you to burn calories better - the goal is to lose weight.

The 4:1 carb:protein ratio is reccomended to assist in muscle recovery from exercise.

If you are already an athlete in good shape, and not trying to lose weight, but maintain your ability to work out at a high level regularly, then assisting recovery with the carb/protein drink is probably good. if you want to lose weight, don't eat so much. :)

Cliff McCold wrote: different methods for different goals. EVS is saying the the HGH curve stimulates your metabolism and allows you to burn calories better - the goal is to lose weight. The 4:1 carb:protein ratio is reccomended to assist in muscle recovery from exercise. If you are already an athlete in good shape, and not trying to lose weight, but maintain your ability to work out at a high level regularly, then assisting recovery with the carb/protein drink is probably good. if you want to lose weight, don't eat so much. :)

Yeah, but HGH doesn't just help burn fat. It also stimulates muscle growth. If that's your objective, it's still confusing (if EVS's info is sound) whether to go for the post workout carbs or wait.

Can you tell I'm bored at work?

Well, HGH also tells you body to pack on lean muscle mass and thicken bones and tendons, so it's pretty critical for gains in strength and size. As far as carbs, they are actually not an essential human nutrient, if you're eating appropriate levels of quality protein and fat your liver can produce glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis. In reality, as in - the way the human metabolism evolved to function over the last few million years - carbs were consumed in small quantities and only very dense, slow to digest roots and sour wild fruits were eaten. Yes, it's true we have been eating grains for about 8-10 thousand years, but that is a blink of an eye compared to our total evolutionary process, not nearly enough time to change our entire metabolic process. You can live off protein, fat and fiber. Your body will exist in a state called ketosis, which has a horrible rap in modern nutritional science. Current wisdom is ketones make you feel like shit and destroy your kidneys, not true. As you adjust your diet, you WILL feel like shit for about a month while your body acclimates to burning a mix of ketones and glucose for fuel, as apposed to almost purely glucose. The kidney thing, I haven't seen any convincing research to prove ketones are that bad for them. Traditional Inuits live all winter on nothing but seal fat and caribou organs, and they're stupid healthy, practically no incidences of cancer, dental carries, autoimmune disease, and they're incredible athletes, running/walking dozens of miles a day. I personally believe it is much healthier to limit your carb intake as much as possible, but I have some radical views that would be highly disputed in many "conventional" circles. So that's what I think, forget carbs, eat a pound of buffalo, a few blueberries, and smother a salad in fish oil, that's all you need to eat.

Brent,

Thanks for the encouraging words... This thread seems to have caused quite the buzz in the training forum. And I may update as I carry-out my experiment. Many of you have brought up some great points and I would like to address each one individually:

Finger Stress/Overtraing
- I do not think this will be an issue due to the fact that my body is already used to Bouldering V6/7 at 170 lbs... My total training weight will never exceed 170 lbs.
- Also, I will only be climb 3-4 days per week
~ Only 1 or 2 of these days will be in the gym with the belt.

Weight Loss
- This is not going to happen over night folks... It will probably take 3-4 months.
- I will not be taking HGH or any other type of supplement.
- Weekly cardio sessions will be increased gradually.
- The weight will be lost through solid nutrition and good old fashioned hard work.

I hope this helps to clear things up a bit.. Other than that, Thank you to everyone who has provided constructive criticism and lets keep the comments coming.

Thanks for the Information.....I agree with the above thought and I am very happy to be the part of this discussion....
Elenora
Elenora
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Crimp,

Sounds like you're pretty set in your new training regime, and I'm not trying to change it. Sounds like you're psyched about it, and that is really the most important part of any training program.

I started climbing when I was 10 (now 26), and have tried a lot of different things, wight belts included. Be careful with you pulley tendons in your fingers. Weight belts/vests are going to change your center of gravity and thus put more strain on your fingers (esp. if your trying V6/7's), and any sudden force, like a foot popping off a hold, will overload your fingers and POP! No climbing for 3 weeks.

I used to do wighted pull ups, which seems good, but there is a possibility to develop tennis elbow unless you're balancing that out with other exercises. So listen to your body. Sounds like your plan will pertain more to endurance training than anything else. Remember that it is almost impossible to improve grip/tendon strength save for a few free weight exercises and campus boards. So focus on your strengths and weaknesses. Remember, there are lots of people who can barely do pull ups, but can climb really hard. Nothing replaces technique.

One last thing, if you have to start tapeing your fingers for "support" during your training, drop the weight belt. Taping for injuries is really only postponing the inevitable. Good luck!

The book "Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain" is rather interesting, very heavy on the science, and largely confirms what EVS was saying later in the book.

Just a couple thoughts.

If you have been at your current weight for a while, even loosing 5 pounds will do wonders for your climbing.

That said, loosing 20 pounds will most likely be the hardest thing you have ever done...assuming you have been physically active and at your current weight for a while.

So, how about being nice to yourself(loosing that much weight will not be that nice) and just enjoy your climbing. If you pull off the weight loss you will be mutant strong without ANY weight training or other climbing specific workouts. Even if you loose 20 pounds of muscle only a small fraction of that weight would be in your climbing specific muscles.

You will have much better luck with the diet if you see improvements in your climbing VS killing yourself with extra weight.

Good luck with your goals!

crimpnasty wrote:Hello MP Members, I have a few ideas I would like to bounce off of all of you... I need to lose about 20 lbs, however I would like to maintain if not increase my current bouldering level. My idea is that for every pound I lose, I will add a pound to a weight belt during my weekly bouldering circuit/session. By the time I reach my goal weight of 150 lbs I will be bouldering with a 20 lb weight belt. Does this seem like it would work? Good/Bad idea? - The bouldering will take place at the gym (once a week) - I will do the same circuit of 15-20 problems every session - I will be sport climbing every Sat & Sun (without the weightbelt)

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If you want to lose weight look at those who do this already - wrestlers and cyclists. You have to expend more calories then you consume. I'm not sure they are the most healthy of people given the extremes they go to, but they do keep the pounds off. I'd think the thing missing from your plan is an inventory on how much and what you are eating. Lance Armstrong used to weigh all his food. Input=Output.

Will the weight belt help that much in losing weight? not sure it matters if you have it on or not...seems more important on how much time you spend at an anaerobic level, WHILE watching what you eat. Doesn't seem to matter the problems, just that you pick the rights ones for your workout. I'd be climbing easier, longer, faster, with a higher heart rate...until you are sweating. Though I'm not sure if you have to go at an all out intensity for short bursts or a 75% max output for a long time is better. Would seem like the latter to me. Thin athletes (runners, cyclists, mountaineers) spend a lot of time in that supposed "fat burning" heart rate area.

OR just get a Bowflex, ab crunch "machine," magic pill, Slimfast, or some Richard Simmons tapes, because according to the idiot box they all work very well. There is also a medieval machine that you can buy from the airline shopping guide that lets you lose weight in 4 minutes a day. Amazing technology!