Geezer Wall Bolt Removal

The Unichopper is obviously a misguided individual. Now everyone who drills must fear him...which is really unfortunate and sad for everyone who just wants to go climbing.
As for the previous comments from Ten, well I also disagree with him and more am in agreement with Brian. Though both are brilliant route developers in their own right, their exist many different motivations for route/bolt installation in the Wasatch and elsewhere. To claim it is all ones personal ego is simply untrue. An altruistic modus operandi can and does at times apply in the climbing world, too. It's like people who will spend much more installing solar panels where, though lacking a cost effective justification to do so, they do it anyway. There are always more motivations to do something than the act itself. And why we do something may be more important than the act itself. However, to destroy something in order to preserve it is the same dialectical and misguided rhetoric we have heard through the ages. To think otherwise is quite self limiting and also sadly misguided.

Sad. The guy does it because he is pissed at his girlfriend for climbing there with another dude. It sounds like all he will be doing in his foreseeable future is climbing with "bros".

It's a fast way to make a whole lot of people not like you (not that he cares), but it comes around. And some might be less than forgiving if they ever meet him out there.

As for grid bolting. The wasatch seems pretty thin on it. And to date - No one has been designated, "determiner of route quality, placement, or bolt count" in the Wasatch. Except for the occasional removal of draws from someone's project, this place is a fairly friendly place for beginners and hard men alike. Let's not turn it into Boulder, CO.

If you disagree with an area's development remember - #1. It sucks to be second - nut up, get there first, fire routes in your style, and post up - otherwise #2. Discuss it with the FAs if you don't like the overbolting. You'd be surprised at how reasonable folks are (note - Guilt trip in BCC near this location is a perfect example of this utahclimbers.com/phpBB3/vie…;t=2928).

Its a shame. There is a limited number of easy access beginner areas like this. It would thin things out and make some of the other crags safer since their aren't beginners climbing things over their heads.

You may not like all the climbers or the growing numbers, but you live in a valley with >1 million people. That will not change and if history is an indicator, it will only get worse.

PT

so after reading this interview with the "Unichopper" i feel like this guy is a jealous fucking douche, you can't kill a crag because your girlfriend left your stupid ass and is climbing there with her new man . get a life you fuck ! go do something better with your time besides destroying climbing areas.

clackmon wrote:lmao that people think that 'interview' is real

+1 HAHA CMON people!! Really???

MY take....

This ch000per, whomever he is, is a MAJOR (recently demoted) pain in our collective assess.

I don't get Clackmon's "huh", Brian your are spot on. As are you Paintrain.

The more areas there are to climb the less climbers there will be at every area. It's a math thing.

Geezer wall sounds like is was a nice little out of the way crag with a bunch of fun moderates. Feedback from those climbing at the area seemed very positive. The fact that some climbers felt the place was over bolted is only an opinion that contradicts that of the majority of the users.
I don't need a bolt every 5 feet on a 5.8 but that doesn't mean some 5.8 climber doesn't appreciate every bolt. If the developers were willing to put in the time and money!! to make every route super safe good for them.

The chopper should be hunted down, tarred and feathered, and rode out of town on a rail. (Right after he gives the hangers back and pays for 3 boxes of bolts so the crag can go back up.)

Those who don't condemn his actions should wake up and smell the new millennium. It's not the 70's anymore and it never will be again.
Like it or not there are millions more climbers now than "back in the day", and most of them are sport climbers. Unless we start retro bolting all the trad lines, more sport routes (at out of the way crags that no one was climbing on anyway)are hurting no one and are, in fact, spreading out the constant influx of new climbers.

I started climbing in the 70's. I would hate to be sharing the amount of routes that existed back then with the amount of climbers there are now!

I hope the climbers in SLC work this thing out in a constructive and thoughtful manner. Believe me I know how difficult it can be.

STH wrote: +1 HAHA CMON people!! Really??? MY take.... This ch000per, whomever he is, is a MAJOR (recently demoted) pain in our collective assess.

I was wondering why mentioning this guy was taking so long.

tenesmus wrote: I take issue with several of your statements here. I just want to re-state a few things. 1-You bolted a crag that was supposed to be 'for beginners' as a community service. No one bolts a crag for anyone but themsleves. If you think you did it for anyone but you then you are not being honest with yourself. 5-Its great that you got positive feedback on your area but I'd again like to emphasize that your community service is limited to your self-service. What kind of ego stroke are you getting out of that positive feedback?

Wow. Statements like that are a gross oversimplification. Sure, ego and the personal satisfaction have something to do with it to a certain extent but do you really believe that "no one bolts a crag for anyone but themselves?"??? Having bolted beginner areas myself, I think that statement is garbage. If I were to bolt an area just for myself, I'd use inferior hardware, I wouldn't bother to clean routes, I wouldn't mess with building trails or landings, and I'd put fewer bolts in, especially on the easier stuff.

That sucks, guys. That wall looked like a lot of fun and I was planning on hitting it up soon.

Someone also mentioned that 125 bolts is a lot for 15 routes and that the sheer quantity of bolts automatically means grid-bolting. Well if you've got 125 bolts on 15 routes, that's less than 9 bolts per route on average. If it's a tall wall, then that number is very reasonable. If that number includes anchor bolts, that means that each route only had 7 lead bolts plus the anchors. Either way, I don't think that 9 bolts on a sport route is excessive in the right context. I never saw the wall in person so I can't vouch for it, but in theory I really don't think there should be a problem with that number of bolts. It's not uncommon to have that many or more bolts on a sport crag.

Tristan

Jimbo wrote:Unless we start retro bolting all the trad lines...

Oh my hell. I know you don't mean that (that's not how I took it), but that is a scary thought. Of course there are routes here and there that this has been done to.

+1 to what Smoot said about not necessarily having anchors on every route. Sure it's more convenient, but there's a little missing adventure and experience when everything has a nice set of chains. Are we trying to raise newbies that have no basic mountaineering skillz?

Just a thought. Not meant to rip on Geezer wall @ all. I too am bummed za bolts r gone.

OK, Brian, James and Tristin have a point about not just doing it for yourself. It just seems that when you get all that good vibe from your newbie friends for cleaning and bolting an easy crag or route then you're still getting something from it. Why else would you have to mention that you bolted a beginner's crag?

I knew I should have listed that one last because the major emphasis of my post is the way these guys went about things. Its impolite and imprudent to do the following: (see points 2-7)

""2-You bolted a crag in a wilderness area with a power drill
It gets done. Sure. But look at the uproar you're making about it.

3-You came to an SLCA sanctioned event in conjunction with the Forest Service, interrupted the event and then complained loudly that your illegally bolted crag had been chopped.

3a-Are you TRYING to get action from the Forest Service?
3b-The SLCA would have loved to have had your help at the Ferguson Crag day, where the community was being served with trail work and cleanup. Sorry you only made it there for the lunch and raffle session.

4-You talk with one or two members of the SLCA in private, come home and then proceed to slander them on the internet. Are you TRYING to get the SLCA to not help you?

5-You bundle one guy's opinions into the rest of the SLCA. Mike's words and content aside, he did have some bad timing there.

5-Its great that you got positive feedback on your area but I'd again like to emphasize that your community service is limited to your self-service. What kind of ego stroke are you getting out of that positive feedback?

6-You mock the SLCA's stewardship.
This is very offensive to any community organization and shows your lack of respect for the ongoing effort they give to ensure your access to climbing in the Wasatch.

This behavior is far more offensive than Mike White calling you out for bolting next to cracks and over-bolting a crag with a power drill in a wilderness area and then complaining loudly in front of the Forest Service about it.

Are you trying to get them to gain a heavy hand with this kind of thing? Did you meet those trail boss' in Ferguson. They'd eat you for breakfast!""

Jimbo wrote:......I hope the climbers in SLC work this thing out in a constructive and thoughtful manner. Believe me I know how difficult it can be.

+100 to your entire post; particularly this part.

, please read Jimbo's entire sentence.

"Unless we start retro bolting all the trad lines, more sport routes...are hurting no one..."

I'm pretty sure he meant precisely that.

And I too, strongly agree with Brian about rap anchors. Just a few weeks ago I had this very conversation with a good friend, and I told him how glad I was that Schoolroom still does not have bolted anchors, and that I wish more routes were still that way.

Jimbo, I heard about the bolting drama in your neck of the woods. How's that going? I hope you guys can get that back under control, also.

Not to play it down too far, but i believe the extent of our drama was hangers being swapped out without permission.

Just curious. How much, if any, damage was done to the rock during the removal? Were they all 5p bolts? Were any holes covered? Sorry if i missed it already clarified in an earlier post.

Hey I would gladly donate some hardware to rebolt this entire area(serious). I would do it by cover of night with a power drill, like the vandals who chopped the area in the first place(just kidding). Lets bolt some more moderate routes that feel comfortable for the grade. Sick of 5.5 routes bolted for the 5.12 leader. Sorry to stick my opinion were it doesn't belong.I am a 99.9% trad climber who chooses to be. I will place gear in a crack even if it is next to a bolt. As far as I know bolting is still legal, even in wilderness, with a hand drill. Sorry about your area Mark.

Its unfortunate to hear that someone would chop the bolts off a wall without first consulting both the easily accessible climbing community and the FA.
The crag is in an out of the way area and in no way could be considered an eye sore to anyone in the area.
Yes it was a wilderness area but lets be real, this isnt the first area to have bolts in a wilderness area.

On a personal note. i took a friend climbing to the geezer wall on last week friday. it was her first time climbing and i thought it would be a better place to go and avoid the junk show at the slips or dogwood. As a new climber she really enjoyed it. I thought there were perhaps to many bolts for some routes (but then again chose not to clip the bolts) but for a beginner climbing it may have been adequate.

Ooo and if in fact the reason bolts were removed because the person thought there are to many bolts in BCC...then should all of BCC be unbolted, i mean its all choss anyways.

"That's a mighty fine hole you dug their Luke, why don't you just go ahead fill it back up"

Guard to Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke

matt snider wrote:As far as I know bolting is still legal, even in wilderness, with a hand drill.

It's a murky area and depends on which agency manages the land. The BLM came up with guidelines where placing bolts with a hand drill is ok within reason. I believe the National Park Service is close to finalizing similar guidelines - but many parks have their own regulations already. The Forest Service however has no guideline and leaves it up to each ranger district to address the issue... many districts haven't the time or resource to do it so they have a mish-mash of regulations that may or may not be accurate - you have to call the ranger district where the crag resides to be sure what is allowed, and even then... who knows. It is unclear at best.

It's too bad about Geezer Wall. It sounds like a really cool crag... hopefully it will be restored.

Having never been to the Geezer Wall, I cannot comment on specifics. In my personal opinion, any problems with existing routes (new or old) should be addressed to the larger community if they cannot be solved by communicating with the route developers. This was definitely out of line.

We at the SLCA have been discussing this issue since being made aware of it at Crag Day. All kinds of theories have been thrown around. We are aware and will try to be a positive force for climbers on these issues. You all make up the community, and this dialogue is healthy.

Mike White will sometimes get fired up and shoot from the hip. It is exactly this fire that gives him the passion to be one of the Wasatch climbing community's greatest assets. I haven't met anyone who busts his/her ass harder than Mike. Even if he wouldn't have placed those bolts on your latest project, he'd be the first one to volunteer to replace them if they went bad. I'll bet all of you have clipped a bolt Mike has replaced. Keep it up Monkey.

Thanks to everyone who came to the SLCA Crag Day last Saturday. Amazing! Surely some of you must still be sore. If only I could have convinced some of you to come over and help me finish put up siding at my house. Our climbing community should be proud of itself. Looking at the Geezer Wall problem in that context, I am optimistic that together we can find a solution.

I am saddened that someone would take it upon themselves to personally destroy a good place to climb. I've never been there, but I'm sure it was a great place and puts out a lot of people. As to bolting, I'm sure everyone out there was a beginner at one point and felt relieved to have bolts around. I just got back from Hawaii, where the main place to climb on Oahu (Moluleia Point) contains several, if not all, mixed climbs. I am just starting to try to get into trad climbing, however, did not take any trad gear (mostly cuz I only have two pieces and don't really know how to use them yet) but I would've loved to have something when the climbs got rather runout. I took a huge fall (we guessed about 30 feet; I was about the clip the next bolt when I slipped), which would've been much shorter had the entire route been bolted. I say if you decide to bolt a route, do the whole thing so others, who may not be as good of a climber as you, will be able to enjoy the route and not get too sketched out by the runout. I am very grateful to those who have donated so much time, money and energy to bolting so that I, and the several others I take with me, can enjoy the rock and try to get better. I feel cheated from some good climbs and I hope no one decided to do that anymore, ever.

Nich Cloward wrote:I say if you decide to bolt a route, do the whole thing...

This will not do. Bolts should be thought of an absolute last option. IOW, iff no gear is possible and the runout will undoubtedly result in a ground fall or the like, only then should fixed protection be placed. This condition is frequently met for every bolt on some routes... these routes are called sport routes. If you're talking about a 'sport wall' and there are one or two possible gear placements you're wanting to slam bolts in next to,... well it's a judgement call and this is why mentoring, reason, and opinions are so important in our line of recreation. It's easy to get carried away.

Sounds like what you ran into is a mixed area that someone may have augmented with some bolts to keep it safe and free of an 'x' rating. Sorry to hear about your fall but the truth is i commend the route setter for using restraint. Clearly, his intent was for the route to be climbed with gear - while clipping the bolts to tame runout if desired.

The idea is 'minimal impact'; not bolting everything down to suit the sport climber's requirements. I have no preference, in general. I bring whatever i need to get up whatever i have on the menu. That being said, there are days when i just want to place gear and not look at bolts so i might deliberately pick a trad line or vice versa. And in my travels, 99% of the climbers i meet are of a similar mindset.

Haven't been to the Geezer Wall but the Wasatch has a tradition of not placing bolts next to cracks on slab climbs. Don't know if this was the case, but if so, it would be great if the FA party would take this into consideration.