Bolt Anchors on 4th class?

I am a bit disturbed by the fact that everyone here is focusing on the placement or non-placement of some bolts and really ignoring the big issue, leaving fixed ropes in the wilderness.

The real alteration occurring right now is that a few more seasons of fixed lines on Little Bear and they will become permanent in at least the minds of climbers who frequent the mountain. This to me is the bigger issue here. If we want to fight for preserving our wilderness it has to start with this.

I wonder if Robbins and Pratt would have bolted the anchors on the Hart ledges descent if they had known how those would be used in the future? Do you think they knew they were opening Pandora's Box at the time? I am guessing not. The fixed lines to Heart Ledges are a good example of how easy it is to change the perceptions of climbers on what is OK and what is not. Multiple ropes hanging down 800 feet of perfect El Cap granite have forever changed the way many routes are accessed and climbed. Fixed lines have become the norm.

Bolts or no bolts, is not really the question. Fixed ropes off of camouflaged anchors is just as heinous in my mind as fixed ropes from slung blocks. Isn't it a big tongue in cheek to say that permanent alterations to the mountain (bolts) are a lower impact than slings? Especially when they will be used to fix ropes on 4th class terrain?

If you have never been up on the Little Bear/Blanca massif in a bad storm then you wouldn't realize how life saving a few well placed descent anchors would be. A couple of shiny beefy bolts is far less obnoxious than a wad of rotting tat and disintegrating fixed ropes.

RGold you modesty is monumental. But you are mostly correct in that a climbers resume does not necessarily validate their opinion. At least on most subjects.

You have all missed the mark completely! Obviously this is a candidate to become a Via Ferrata route. Now get off this forum, go to the hardware store, buy some cable and get to work!

Edit: someone already got to this on page 2.... darn it.

Serious response then, the ropes are very unsightly, looks like litter to me, I have no problem with fixed hardware, especially if it is camo'ed. Looks to me like a cable anchor around that large boulder may be the way to go.

JSH wrote:Perhaps a naive question, as I'm unfamiliar with the turf, but: do most hikers carry a rope, harness, and knowledge of what to do with them, on this route?

Unequivocally....... No.

Not sure if this question was somewhat rhetorical but in some ares of the Utah dessert I have seen warning signs telling people that it is easier to climb up than down, maybe something similar is needed at the trail head of this climb. At some point people do need to rely on their own common sense though.

So what I want to know is who is leaving these ropes? Two pairs of them are identical. Who brings two ropes to leave, CMC, County SAR or some other organization? I can't imaging two separate individuals bringing that much rope to benefit lamoes like me.

J C Wylks wrote:So what I want to know is who is leaving these ropes? Two pairs of them are identical. Who brings two ropes to leave, CMC, County SAR or some other organization? I can't imaging two separate individuals bringing that much rope to benefit lamoes like me.

JC, I cannot imagine a SAR team would leave behind anchors rigged like that, could you imagine lowering a litter + person with that rig? I don't think any climbing organization would want to take credit for that. Cannot imagine an AMGA guide doing that either.

I don't think anyone who would use this on an emergency or difficult conditions is a "lamo", bet your ass I would do it, but I also bet neither one of us would expect stuff like this to be in place generally.

I was kind of disappointed to see it there.

phil broscovak wrote:If you have never been up on the Little Bear/Blanca massif in a bad storm then you wouldn't realize how life saving a few well placed descent anchors would be.

A lot of very bad decisions have been made if you are trying to downclimb that bit of fourth class in a bad storm. It just doesn't take that long to get to the summit and back from there.

Andrew Gram wrote: A lot of very bad decisions have been made if you are trying to downclimb that bit of fourth class in a bad storm. It just doesn't take that long to get to the summit and back from there.

Excellent point and one that goes to the real issue. Putting bolts there makes decision making different, and might lead people to overestimate their ability or other factors.

"Hmmm a few flashes of lightening ... no matter, I'll just rap off the fixed bolts real quick."

Of course the real question for everybody saying there "should" be this or that ... are you going to lug the drill, the hardware and the chains up there to ~14,000 feet? Are you going to provide instruction to the peak baggers on how to do a durfelsitz rappel? Are you going to maintain those ropes on a weekly basis?

"Somebody should...!"

Kevin Stricker wrote:I am a bit disturbed by the fact that everyone here is focusing on the placement or non-placement of some bolts and really ignoring the big issue, leaving fixed ropes in the wilderness.

I agree, Kevin, the fixed ropes are really the major problem. And Julie's question is also right on the mark. This is a fourth-class gully, and fourth-class typically means a rope (and so, of course, some anchors). Of course highly skilled climbers can go up and down fourth class without a rope, but that is not the case at all for everyone, and shouldn't have to be. (I don't subscribe to the maxim that since you can solo it, I have too as well.)

What appears to be happening (do a search on Little Bear Peak and read some of the blog accounts) is that many people who are simply not competent on fourth-class terrain (and Little Bear is dangerous fourth class with a very nasty rock fall potential---people have been killed by rockfall in the Hourglass couloir) are going up there. They aren't carrying ropes and gear for anchors and may not even know how to use them. If the ropes and anchors weren't there, my guess is almost all of the unprepared would sensibly turn back. But the ropes (bad and dangerous as they are) lure folks who really can't manage this terrain up, and then the damn well have to use the ropes to get down again.

There are two approaches to this problem, and it is here that I think the parallel to constructing drilled anchors is clearest. One approach is that the ropes are dangerous and are luring people onto ground they are not prepared for, so they should be replaced by chains or ladders, or via ferrata or whatever. The other approach is the mountain should be stripped of all this garbage and people who come to climb it should come with the requisite equipment and knowledge.

One approach slowly or quickly degrades the natural scene in a never-ending spiral of accomodations to an increasingly unprepared collection of user groups. It also denies those who would like to experience the mountain on the mountain's terms any chance of doing so.

The other approach says, leave the mountain as it has been for eons (or return it to that state) and let those who want to climb it learn how to do that without subjecting the mountain itself to engineering modifications.

The second approach is sometimes criticized as elitist, because it implies that perhaps not everyone who wants to climb the Hourglass couloir will be able to. I honestly don't see how it can be elitist to leave things as they have been since time immemorial. If not everyone can do every thing, that is how nature is ordered. Should the English Channel be spanned from shore to shore with a chain of bouyant rubber duckies because I and many others aren't remotely strong enough to swim it? I think not. Are those who would argue the English Channel should not be equipped with rubber-ducky chains elitist? Not to my way of thinking.

By the way, the Hourglass couloir is under snowpack throughout the winter and subject to rockfall throughout the summer. The combination of water and rockfall make the long-term reliability of bolts (someone said something like thirty years up-thread) questionable.

JSH wrote:Well ... if most users are unequipped to actually use bolts, that makes them a moot point, no?

It's not a question of whether people should put anchors here, know how to do it correctly or know how to inspect them.

They are doing it, like it or not.

The only thing left to do now is mitigate as much as possible and I think some sort of "clean" fixed anchor (ie cable or bolts/chain ) would be best.

As to people leaving ropes, I don't know how to solve the problem of people leaving their trash around in general, nothing can be done there except to grab yourself a haul line or rope for around the house.

Rick Blair wrote: The only thing left to do now is mitigate as much as possible and I think some sort of "clean" fixed anchor (ie cable or bolts/chain ) would be best. As to people leaving ropes, I don't know how to solve the problem of people leaving their trash around in general, nothing can be done there except to grab yourself a haul line or rope for around the house.

Help me understand how this is going to take care of the fixed rope issue? Also how about going up with a knife and some webbing, cleaning up the tat and putting up some new slings. Problem solved for several years.

And who are we kidding with the "Camo" anyways, the whole point of having the anchor there is for people to bail in bad weather, how are they going to find a bolted anchor in a snowstorm? Slings are easily visible to the people who need them most.

I think it should also be pointed out that generally only people who frequent an area often will leave ropes fixed. Most peak baggers are not planning to come back (after that hike) any time soon. Most likely the culprits in this case are guides who don't want to shlep up a rope every time they climb the mountain.

I'm looking to climb bierstadt in comfort. I need some porters to run my royal carriage rickshaw and those oft breaks where a good tea or lunch stop may be needed, we will need some supplies shuttled as we make progression. We plan to climb in style.

Kevin Stricker wrote: I think it should also be pointed out that generally only people who frequent an area often will leave ropes fixed. Most peak baggers are not planning to come back (after that hike) any time soon. Most likely the culprits in this case are guides who don't want to shlep up a rope every time they climb the mountain.

This brings up a good point. Who exactly is putting fixed ropes up there? Do guides really take people up this route?

Kevin Stricker wrote: putting up some new slings. Problem solved for several years.

Huh? Slings that have been exposed for several years would be rather silly to rap down (i.e., suicidal). Aside from the weathering, there's plenty of critters looking for a little salt. That's why one sling quickly grows into an unsightly rat's nest, especially on a high traffic route.

...

The Duke of Abruzzi had an iron bedstead on his attempt at K2!

"The Murder of the Impossible" ... has it morphed into the humiliation of the probable?

BrianH wrote: Huh? Slings that have been exposed for several years would be rather silly to rap down (i.e., suicidal). \

I rap on slings I placed several years ago all the time. Do your homework and check the testing done by BD and others if you are in doubt. Weathering has nothing to do with salt, so that is not an issue. Also these anchors are covered in snow for at least 6 months of the year, I am guessing a piece of webbing even at 14k feet will hold near full strength for 2-3 years. If everyone brings a sling along what is the problem with cutting out an old sling and replacing it with a new one?

I will send you some 10 year old slings and you can try to break them if you would like. You better have a big pull tester.

Buff Johnson wrote:I'm looking to climb bierstadt in comfort. I need some porters to run my royal carriage rickshaw and those oft breaks where a good tea or lunch stop may be needed, we will need some supplies shuttled as we make progression. We plan to climb in style.

Jolly Good old bean! I do rahther miss the days of Empire, what? One mustn't forget the gun-bearers either. Do have a bloody good climb!

"Weathering has nothing to do with salt, so that is not an issue.

....

If everyone brings a sling along what is the problem with cutting out an old sling and replacing it with a new one? I will send you some 10 year old slings and you can try to break them if you would like. You better have a big pull tester."

Salt attracts mammals who chew through the material to get to the salt.

Check out this tread:

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

I agree that if you add a sling while taking a sling, it solves a lot of problems.

This is from a website testing slings used to haul freight:

"Under cyclic loading of slings the webbing strength markedly deteriorates, which leads to a decrease in the actual value of the sling safety factor."

springerlink.com/content/l7…

Pat Amend in his book "Master Climber" notes that after one week in the sun, a nylon sling can retain only a 1/4 of its strength. He does note that the more modern material are safer and more weather resistant.

Black Diamond tested sport draws, and found that they retained significant strength over time even with exposure to sunlight. But these are not rap anchors subject to the freeze thaw cycle, at least based on the very small sample of 3 I found on their website.

Why take a change? I'd much rather lug my own rap slings up there, and lug the old tat down, then trust a rat's nest.

....repeating myself I know, but I am quite curious.

Who is putting fixed lines up there?

Good god.... Is this a political forum or a climbing one!?!? 5 pages and an insane and annoying amount of continuous repetiton..... WTF? Has the internet truly made this sport a Lincoln-Douglas moral and political debate. Puuuuuuuuke.

Its simple- if you dont like it, clean it. If you needed it, sad, but it happens. This sport has become part of a much larger user group than the past- double edged sword. Good and bad. So-as in the past, and always- ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Simple.

Thus, really, the main point has been missed.....

Get off the internet, get over it already, shut the hell up on the matter and.......

GO CLIMBING ALL FRIKKIN READY!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a nice day and clean the tat and dont leave if not needed. Flame on.... :)