Guiding on K2

Ali Jaffri wrote:Dont you have to summit a peak before you can actually guide it? Although its true that Fabrizio has "climbed on K2 four times" from what I know (and my info may be wrong) he has never stood on the summit. Either way, Im sure he is qualified to lead on the mountain. I just find it unfortunate. I guide in the Karakoram as well, but the idea is to simplify the logistics and lead the client to the base-camp of the peak, not hold their hand and push their rear to the summit. Ofcourse Im bitter, when Fabrizio and his clients leave, it will be the Pakistanis who will have to scoop up their poop and carry power bar wrappers on a 10 day hike down the Baltoro. If they get stuck, Pakistani helicopters will be the ones doing yet another high-altitude rescue endangering more people. God help alpinism.

This is the main problem I have with all of the mess that is going on on Everest. Now it will begin happening in Pakistan as well.

When will people realize that this is destroying some of the greatest wilderness in the world, not to mention the unique cultures that have thrived there. God help alpinism? I say God help the whole world!

Ali Jaffri wrote:I think I opened a can of worms here. The intent was not to trash Fabrizio's image in any way. If you read my first post I said "Im sure he is qualified to lead on the mountain." You can call me a hypocrite, poser, laughable, anything else you can dish out. At the end of the summer I'll be in the Karakoram again, with or without a client. Me and my unqualified guides who were born and raised in these mountains and chased yaks up elevations you hardly find on this continent. Picking up powerbar wrappers, gu gels, oxygen tanks, and all the other lovely gifts you hardcore bad-asses bring for us. Earlier this year there was a winter expedition on Broad Peak with Don Bowie, Artur Hajzer and 2 Pakistani members. These guys are not AMGA, or IFMGA, but had summitted most of Pakistan's 8000 meter peaks including K2. There are several guys like that down there, but you wont see them on the cover of the Alpinist. Ali Khan on my website has been on 7000 meter peaks, Naseem on Broad Peak, and 2 of my Hunza guides have been on Batura and more,but you're right they're not qualified to lead people to base-camps. I think I'll take Jack's advice and "just go back up into the mountains." I joined this site to bring a different perspective...which obviously is not welcome unless sugar-coated American-style. Now I can see why no Nepalese, Bhutani or Afghan guys ever contribute here. As far as the routes and areas listed Eli, no worries by tomorrow everything on Pakistan Ive uploaded will be gone.

And you know what Ali... if I were you I really would "just go back up into the mountains." Don't waste your time talking to idiots. You have it much better off than anyone living in the states. Don't get wrapped up in all the bullshit.

In case you haven't realized, most Americans don't give a rats ass about anyone but themselves and are so ignorant that they don't even realize how much they contribute to the constant ass pounding that we give to the third world... not to mention the environment. Climbers are no different, they just pretend to be.

Climb with Ali!

Eli Helmuth wrote:Typical Ali -you can dish it out but you can't take a bit of criticism? Gonna take your toys and go home? Looks like you're the one who needs sugar coating, or are you going to finish your degree in geology at our prestigious university first? Maybe join the other million or so Pakistanis who have abandoned your country to live in England or the 1/2 million that live here in the States? It's a real shame that so many with education and resources have abandoned their country and given it to the Taliban. Maybe you could go back and put up a fight against those tyrants instead of hiding here in the States? I doubt you'll leave for good- you don't sound that brave.

Wow talk about a simplistic overreaction..Good thing you chose to be born in the U.S...

Climb K2 with Ali!

Eli,
I gotta say, your first few posts were a bit viscous. And the comments about the Tallban and "hiding" out in our country are totally uncalled for. Just because Ali expressed a bit of annoyance with guided parties doesn't give you the right to trash him and call him a poser. Truth be told, I've had plenty of annoying experiences with guides. So have a lot of people I know. That's not to say that there are not conscientious, courteous, and responsible guides out there (I know there are), but I have to admit, I don't think guide certification necessarily means squat about being responsible. In fact, some of the stupidest and most unsafe crap I have witnessed in the mountains was committed by guides.

Furthermore, just because there are amazing guides like Jack Tackle doing great things for local people, doesn't mean the that the gross portion of guided parties in the greater ranges are not littering shit, wrappers and oxygen bottles all over the place. Do local pakistanis probably litter? Sure. Are they the best stewards of their own land? Maybe not. But that doesn't change the fact that guided parties make Everest and other places a dumping ground. Gu packets and oxygen bottles aren't from local goat herders. Some of Ali's sentiment seems be just a bit resentful for non-local people coming in and trashing the place. This seems pretty reasonable to me.

Just my observations.

Eli Helmuth wrote:..talk about a fucked up world we live in...

You got that right..

I don't care about this argument one way or another but I'd request that Ali leave his Pakistan stuff up. It is a unique contribution to this site.

It's always a drag to walk into the mountains and see trash. It's not only guided parties that use GU and oxygen bottles; plenty of non-guided parties do the same thing.

The fact is that there just isn't any way that govenments control who goes up there and who doesn't and that's the way it should be but I hate to see so much commercial guiding happening on so many big mountains. Especially since many of these companies do invite epics by having either poorly trained and inexperienced staff or unqualified clients.

I've always kinda felt that some mountains should be left alone from being guided. Having both types of expeditions (commercial and non-commercial) often just doesn't work very well.
I've seen this in Alaska as well as in Nepal and Pakistan.

I'd hate to see sections of K2 "fixed" and bolted but last time I was there (1996) it was kind of like that and it wasn't being done by commercial expeditions. It was by totally sponsored Dutch nationalistic expeditions that had unlimited resources using some of Pakistan's finest high altitude porters. They had TWO Liason Officers in camp the entire time. When these expeditions were through they just left all their trash on the mountain and i base camp
.
The LOs just looked the other way. I'm with Eli on this. Guided trips get blamed for much of the trash left on mountains. All of the trash I've seen on K2 was left by large expedition-style groups who were not commercial. Guides had nothing to do with it.

I really think it comes down to having a conscientious LO who will enforce the "bring back the trash" policy and not just give the environmental fee back to every expedition without checking if they have indeed brought everything off the mountain.

Everyone deserves to experience the mountains without tripping over old beer cans and having GU wrappers sticking to the bottom of their boots.

Eli,

Im all about seeing eye to eye. I have my PhD now, and got back from Pakistan a week ago. So lets get on the same page. We'll start with recommending me to go back to Pakistan and fighting the Taliban. That we both know is not realistic, but helping out the 2 million refugees displaced because of the fighting is. Here how YOU can join me:

unhcr.org/news/NEWS/4a2551b…

For the past few years I have donated to Greg Mortenson's Central Asian Institute, they make schools, clinics, and even bridges in northern Pakistan. You can join me in helping them:

ikat.org/make-a-donation/

Finally, as far as educating guides. I'll make you a deal. Next year my house in Hunza (Central Karakoram) will be ready. You are welcome to come stay down there with my family paying only for your room and board ($5/day). I will spread the word and you can teach local guides (not just the ones working for me) proper glacier-travel crevasse rescue techniques, belaying and other practices that would make them safe.

Additionally you can do a wool socks drive in Estes Park. Socks are the most basic item needed by most of these people and in the past month and a half that I was there I didn't see a single person without holes in theirs. I can take a suit-case full of brand-new wool socks with me to Pakistan and actually make a video of them being handed out to the right people before I start being called a hypocrite again.

If you can do any one of these three, we'll see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.

PS. I tried to take my 'toys away' last night but when I tried to delete things mountain project said that sections with comments cannot be deleted, and since 90 people on here have found my contributions helpful I guess we're both SOL.

Very cool sounds like the potentially useless territorial pissing match could turn out to be win-win not only for the two involved, but maybe for a much larger community in general, here and in Pakistan?? I didn't know about the wool sock need, that sounds easy and potentially really positive, a good mix!

I'm more than willing to help in that way seems like here in the front range we could easily round up multiple suitcases worth of good socks, commercial involvement?? lets try to make something of this...

cheers!

Ali,

I have to agree with Jack that, based on my trips to Nepal and Pakistan, most of the trash left on mountains is due to private expeditions. The commercial trips tend to be better about cleaning up after themselves since they need to return in future seasons.

Perhaps it's an overly broad brush but I'd also venture that North Americans and Western Europeans also tend to be better about cleaning up after themselves. For example, I've seen a lot of trash left by Koreans and Iranians on G2.

BTW Fabrizio has not summited K2. OTOH he single handedly carried a Balti porter (another Ali for whom "Ali camp" is named) down from above the bottleneck for 3 days when other climbers refused to help. He isn't guiding the Abruzzi route and they won't be using ladders. After last season's clusterfuck involving "private climbers," I think the time is right for improving safety on K2 and guiding done right can actually help in that regard.