Eldo/Over The Hill Accident

Buff Johnson wrote: The frequency of accidents is really not that much in relation to the amount of users. ---- You will always hear about Eldo; there isn't anything wrong with that.

Thanks Buff, some good information and points. Know though, I wasnt suggesting "something is wrong with that", merely pointing out some facts.

There are many places with high user ratio's. Garden of the Gods, Shelf, Yosemite, IC, etc. Stll, you dont hear of them as much. Maybe because this is a Boulder based site plays a role- but, it seems to me, that Eldo has more than what all the normal factors warrant(rock type/quality, trad/sport, inherent risk, user ratio's, gear, etc.)than other heavily used areas.

I am not suggesting something wrong with Eldo or it's user's- just pointing out that the accident level SEEMS high, and maybe that desrves some looking at. The rescue group surly must review these facts to see if the accidents could be lessened through some type of mitigation. Any person in any sport- especially the riskier ones like climbing- can have an accident any day at any time. However, if it starts to become too often, it should be evaluated. Thus me asking the question. I'll still climb there and wish well to any hurt, but if asking a question saves just one injury from happening, then I think it was worth asking.

Climb hard, Climb safe....if it ever stops raining. :)

It seems to me that Eldo has a lot of very run-out climbs. There's a strong, long-time tradition of no bolts, and no new fixed pins, and in some cases of not even replacing old fixed pins. I don't lead a number of climbs at Eldo because of the danger of getting hurt in a fall (ok, I'm turning into a wimp as I get older).
When I first climbed Rincon, ages ago, the fixed pin at the crux was still in place (though it wouldn't prevent a nasty fall). I heard the pin came out and wasn't replaced - don't know if that's true or not. But many climbs at Eldo are rated "R" or "X".
Plus that, it's difficult to place pro sometimes - you really need to look around and be creative with RP's. A new trad leader may not have the experience to get in good protection. I personally would like to see a loosening of the no fixed pro mentality - at least replace fixed pro that was there initially.
I've spoken to other climbers who climbed there 20 or more years ago, and still climb today, but won't currently lead some of the more run-out and dangerous climbs.
Perhaps the powers in charge can re-evaluate this situation?

Down here in Tucson AZ we have Mt. Lemmon and lots of other areas within an hour or so of town which spreads us out. Eldo is a big fish bowl so anytime anything happens people see it. Plus Eldo is pretty old school which means the best pro you have is sometimes between the ears. It does seem like you have a lot of accidents from my seat but as I say perhaps we have as many but just don't see or hear about them. We may not get as many rescues because we tend to have one pitch routes and relatively easy access. Doesn't hurt to ask the question!

& oh yeah, good point; Eldo is within the fishbowl chocked full of feel-good drama queens

Avery Nelson wrote: Buffster -- is there an online listing of rescues in colorado that is up to date? Would be interesting to see.

There really isn't much.

The MRA does an annual stat count; I don't know if the CSRB actually has anything unless it involves a charge for rescue. Some of the rescue teams do some reporting, but teams can also be restricted from within their organization & sheriff. The various sheriffs & fire may have some things which fall under the FOI Act; but usually their info officers just operate within the immediate media scope to get their message out & not necessarily reporting after full due process.

Overall, I think the best source has been the ANAM; it goes through the completion of due process for most incidents when there is really a question about why something happened. I wish more teams reported in that ANAM format.

sibylle wrote:When I first climbed Rincon, ages ago, the fixed pin at the crux was still in place (though it wouldn't prevent a nasty fall). I heard the pin came out and wasn't replaced - don't know if that's true or not.

Not true, the pin at Rincon crux is still there. It is slightly bent and other than that I can't speak to its quality. On the route page for Rincon someone mentions an attempt 5 or 6 years ago to replace it, and they could not remove it. Not sure what tools or methods were used.

Oddly, none of the factors people have mentioned about Eldo being accident-prone would really apply to this case. The pitch is moderate climbing, lots of rests, no ledges to fall on, no loose rock, and very good, frequent gear. On Over the Hill P2 (really p1 top section)I think that the first 10-15 feet of thin stemming above the ledge, before clipping the pin, would be a much more accident-prone location.

surprise another Eldo accident.

sibylle wrote:It seems to me that Eldo has a lot of very run-out climbs. There's a strong, long-time tradition of no bolts, and no new fixed pins, and in some cases of not even replacing old fixed pins. I don't lead a number of climbs at Eldo because of the danger of getting hurt in a fall (ok, I'm turning into a wimp as I get older). When I first climbed Rincon, ages ago, the fixed pin at the crux was still in place (though it wouldn't prevent a nasty fall). I heard the pin came out and wasn't replaced - don't know if that's true or not. But many climbs at Eldo are rated "R" or "X". Plus that, it's difficult to place pro sometimes - you really need to look around and be creative with RP's. A new trad leader may not have the experience to get in good protection. I personally would like to see a loosening of the no fixed pro mentality - at least replace fixed pro that was there initially. I've spoken to other climbers who climbed there 20 or more years ago, and still climb today, but won't currently lead some of the more run-out and dangerous climbs. Perhaps the powers in charge can re-evaluate this situation?

Sibylle, you make valid points here. But, of the 6 accidents in the last 12 months that I know of (and was there for 3), runouts and poor protection was not a factor. In fact, one of the most serious accidents happened after a leader clipped a new two bolt anchor. Another, the leader choose to place only one piece even though several other placements were available and it pulled. The third, the belayer was belaying laying down and got hit by rock fall. The fourth was a free soloist. And the accident this thread refers to he had good gear and it held after a modest leader fall.

I disagree about the numbers comparisons Shane makes above. IC is only busy spring and fall (it had two accidents last year that I know of), the Garden is a fraction of the size and capacity of Eldo (it had two accidents just in the last few months that I know of). Eldo sees climbers entering @6am and 6pm. Lots of people year round especially with this past warm winter. I don't have actual numbers but I am willing to bet Eldo sees no more accidents per capita than any other area. I bet it is less because it sees sooo much traffic.

On the other hand, I feel accidents in Eldo are common because it is a very multi dimensional climbing venue. The diversity of the nature of the accidents serves as proof. Route finding can be tricky, gear can be tricky, excellent rock and loose rock exist side by side, communication can be challenging cause of wind/river/other parties shouting, routes are difficult for the grade especially in the 6-9+ range (5 out of the six accidents mentioned above were in this range). The list goes on. I love climbing in Eldo... one of the reasons, its the real deal! And when I go there I know its game on whether I'm climbing 5 easy or 5 hard.

Greg D wrote:...of the 6 accidents in the last 12 months that I know of (and was there for 3)

Shikes!! Lemme know when you're going to be there so I can calendar different days!
:)

Just a sidenote, there is perfect gear available above the shoddy fixed pin on Rincon (a mid/larger stopper). That's why it has never been updated and would not be replaced if it fell out.

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Shikes!! Lemme know when you're going to be there so I can calendar different days! :)

Yeah, I know. Kind of spooky if you are superstitious. If the weather clears I'll be there tomorrow so everyone stay away. I may go Saturday, too!

Eldo would be a more enjoyable and safer venue for the vast majority of climbers with more (bomber) fixed protection. Having said that, there is nothing like a consensus to make that happen (it's much the opposite). The mid-level climber relatively quickly climbs most everything that has safe gear and will not be able to climb the vast majority of harder routes even if he/she technically has a pretty good chance of pulling the moves. That's the way many expert (and, surprisingly to me, many other mid-level climbers) like it.
But the above is just a random observation based on some other comments--it bears repeating that neither the present accident nor many other recent ones are attributable to Eldo having many difficult-to-protect (or impossible to safely protect, really) climbs.
It would be great to me if more climbs like Chris Archer's splendid Sunset Boulevard went in. I suppose many others would think that's a desecration.
Being extra careful in Eldo cuz of loose rock and tricky placements is a good idea. It does seem objectively more dangerous than many other areas.

It's pretty easy to figure out why there are so many accidents in this area. We have a large number of people who learned to climb on sport routes or indoors. They are very strong, used to climbing on routes with high numbers and are not very experienced at placing gear, pacing themselves and leading on trad routes that are tricky.

Sure it can be tricky to place gear but if one looks around, takes their time to place gear that won't come out, and climbs within their ability AND experience, they won't get hurt even on R rated climbs.
But we're dealing with a relatively inexperienced climbing pool here and that's why we have so many accidents. Climbers are very casual about placing enough gear and anticipating what can happen and taking the steps to prevent an accident. Lots of leaders that I have watched just skip over good placements because the terrain they are on is easy. People can still slip and fall on easy rock......................

jack roberts wrote:It's pretty easy to figure out why there are so many accidents in this area. We have a large number of people who learned to climb on sport routes or indoors. They are very strong, used to climbing on routes with high numbers and are not very experienced at placing gear, pacing themselves and leading on trad routes that are tricky. Sure it can be tricky to place gear but if one looks around, takes their time to place gear that won't come out, and climbs within their ability AND experience, they won't get hurt even on R rated climbs. But we're dealing with a relatively inexperienced climbing pool here and that's why we have so many accidents. Climbers are very casual about placing enough gear and anticipating what can happen and taking the steps to prevent an accident. Lots of leaders that I have watched just skip over good placements because the terrain they are on is easy. People can still slip and fall on easy rock......................

You would be surprised how many accidents involve very experienced climbers. Your assertion is kind of an urban myth. Look at the annual accident reports and you'll see what I mean. Just to reference a couple recent eldo accidents: the guys on doub-griffith were VERY experienced and very strong (12+ trad type guys), the accident on Kloberdanz also involved an experienced guy, as did both accidents on Werksup.

Agreed that there is some gumby behavior going on as a result of people learning bad habits inside and elsewhere, but bad shit can happen to anyone, anytime.

jack roberts wrote:if one looks around, takes their time to place gear that won't come out, and climbs within their ability AND experience, they won't get hurt even on R rated climbs. But we're dealing with a relatively inexperienced climbing pool here and that's why we have so many accidents. Climbers are very casual about placing enough gear and anticipating what can happen and taking the steps to prevent an accident. Lots of leaders that I have watched just skip over good placements because the terrain they are on is easy.

I think this observation is profoundly important but also challenging and distressing. Jack describes the casual approach I had in my teens, going miles between pieces (all nuts and hexes) and assuming every one would hold.

For various reasons, I now imagine all but the most text-book placements blowing; if one is less than perfect, I'm anxious for the next one; I carry glistening battle racks of enormous range and weight; and sometimes still get to the belay with little to spare.

No doubt I'm physically safer than I used to be. But sometimes climbing seems like a marathon of placing, clinging, and movement that gets lost in the gear and mechanics.

Even on familiar climbs, that I know can go safely 20 or 30' to another placement, I'm aware of the story an MP member shared, how rock fall launched him on a life threatening monster fall, because he had comfortably run so far without placing.

I want to move light and smooth. Seeking safety sometimes makes me move slow and clunky.

Does anyone relate?

My friend and I had just finished the second pitch of Over The Hill when the accident happened. I was the guy on the ground that they lowered him to, as we had just walked down and then the accident occurred. Not to take anything away from the seriousness of any climbing accident, but the unlucky leader was extremely calm, and I'm pretty sure the injury was not a tib/fib fracture. It did look more like a badly sprained ankle, although those can be more complicated in healing than a proper break. The leader seemed to think he had gear close by when he fell, and was confused as to why he fell as far as he did, and why he was flipped upside down.

I'm a little surprised to see an accident like this touch off such a major discussion on the dangers of Eldo. Rockclimbing is inherently dangerous and part of the satisfaction one obtains is the decision-making process in staying safe. Eldo, while no more serious than many places, does have it's own challenges, such as occassionally loose rock, small gear placements,etc. There is nothing wrong with a person deciding that they are not comfortable with those challenges, or that a particular route is too serious for what they want out of climbing. Nor is that is a good argument for changing the route.

I don't know what caused this accident, but let's not jump to the conclusion from this and other accidents, that major changes must be made to make Eldo. safe for the masses.

What I am seeing are climbers who intentionally skip placing gear because the ground they are climbing on is 5.6, the climb is rated 5.9, and the leader feels like they are a 5.10 leader because they have done some 5.10 sport routes. An example is when I see someone leading pitch one of C'est la Vie. The opening moves of the pitch are 5.8/9 and can be protected. It's smooth and steep and a bit off-balance but can be protected but frequently isn't because, well, it's just off the stance and not hard. Well, I've seen plenty of guys pop off there and hit the rocks because they can't be bothered to place pro because they didn't think they would fall..........The same thing happens on The Bastille Crack or Werk Supp.

Taking the time to place gear that doesn't seem to be necessary is a big part of what keeps climbers out of the hospital.

pfwein wrote:Eldo would be a more enjoyable and safer venue for the vast majority of climbers with more (bomber) fixed protection. Having said that, there is nothing like a consensus to make that happen (it's much the opposite).

One leading cause of injuries in Eldo over the years is probably lowering off the end of the rope on "(bomber) fixed protection."

The unintended consequence of making the area more pedestrian will be attracting more pedestrians. And that will certainly increase the number of accidents.

clackmon wrote:someone sprains an ankle on a G rated pitch and people start talking about adding more fixed gear in ELDO? wtf

Yeah, genreally the proponents of any given idea will use whatever 'data' is available to advance their agenda. Self-included. It's human nature, as we tend to see "the truth" of our private motivations in the available facts.

"Never waste a good crisis."
-Hillary Clinton

Are you kidding????

You've got to remember that this is an internet forum, which, seemingly by definition, is guaranteed to promote massively overblown discussions that have little or no basis in anything remotely akin to facts. I'm thoroughly convinced that a picnicker stubbing their toe near the stream next to the visitor center would result in some weird reasoning by a whole range of yahoos to insist that the park is grossly negligent for not placing fixed plastic handholds on the slippery traverse boulder at the base of the West Ridge.