Vail Ice Climbing Accident

Shane Neal wrote: Wrong. Reread and rethink.... You really believe thats "just pointing out the facts" and non-inflamatory. Seriously? Are you two BFF's or what?...(joking) 1. Just because an experienced climber made a mistake, doesnt mean he is not safe, vigilant or non-proficient. 2. Who are any of us to judge his intent, actions or desire. 3. Who are you to say they wouldnt know what they are looking at!? You dont even know if they saw the anchor. In fact- u dont knoe JS except what the rest of us do- what the people said that were involved by first hand account in the article. So please spare me the lecture, TYVM. I agree we need to discuss, review and learn from this unfortunate error- what ever the cause. But we do not, nor have the right to, judge, trash talk and condemn them. He paid his consequence- took accountability and responsbility like a man- and luckily survived to climb another day. Hardly what I'm saying or doing. Again, are you serious? We know how and why- the one who MADE the mistake explaind and told his side in many an article. Are you going to speak for and judge Lynn Hill too for forgetting to follow her tie in knot through and taking a 70' fall? Im on the same side as you guys- but the perception of your intent and words isnt good IMHO. Peace fella's. May Chris heal quickly and well, and we all learn and be reminded that complaceny can be a killer in our craft.

First off, I've kept my posts very civil from the beginning. You also quoted me before I edited the post and I admit the first iteration was worded improperly which was why I deleted the 'stating the facts' parts as well as changing a couple other lines (that's on me though since I put it the wrong way in the first place). At the top of this page I put forth two very detailed questions that I thought would better help explain what happened. You dismissed these, saying that "there was no need to analyze it." Read my posts. In not a single one of my posts have I been judgmental of the guy (despite holding some personal opinions that would be inflammatory, I have chosen not to voice these) ; I have only wished him the best. Mark's comments were inflamatory and I said as much in my previous post. As I stated before, I'm simply trying to figure out how this happened. It's picqued my curiosity and so I put forth my questions. If this is 'judgmental' to you, then you need to look up the word in the dictionary to get the proper definition.

It's almost like you're trying to cover it up or something ;)

Right on user id = "Shane Neal"

I should have used Mr. Neal. No problem & my apologies for that. Good luck with the rest of this learning experience.

Mike Larson wrote: First off, I've kept my posts very civil from the beginning. You also quoted me before I edited the post and I admit the first iteration was worded improperly which was why I deleted the 'stating the facts' parts as well as changing a couple other lines (that's on me though since I put it the wrong way in the first place). At the top of this page I put forth two very detailed questions that I thought would better help explain what happened. You dismissed these, saying that "there was no need to analyze it." Read my posts. In not a single one of my posts have I been judgmental of the guy (despite holding some personal opinions that would be inflammatory, I have chosen not to voice these) ; I have only wished him the best. Mark's comments were inflamatory and I said as much in my previous post. As I stated before, I'm simply trying to figure out how this happened. It's picqued my curiosity and so I put forth my questions. If this is 'judgmental' to you, then you need to look up the word in the dictionary to get the proper definition. It's almost like you're trying to cover it up or something ;)

I did notice you did edit and repost- after my response. That did clarify more so. So we are good and I agree. I believe it was just the inflammatory side of Mark's comment that got me going. We are on the same page.

Your right- it is a cover up- I work for the goverment- CACUPA/ Climbing Accident Cover Up and Prevention Agency! ;)

Climb hard, Climb safe man.

Mark Nelson wrote:Right on user id = "Shane Neal" I should have used Mr. Neal. No problem & my apologies for that. Good luck with the rest of this learning experience.

LOL!

Hi Mark, Im Shane. You climb!? Me too! Sweet..... Ok, now we are on a first name basis.... :)

Mark- I have learnd. Much. I hope you have as well. Seriously both sides. Truce.

Climb hard. Climb Safe.

John Keller wrote: Does anyone have a thought about why this particular mistake keeps happening?

This is really the heart of the matter. But, does it do any good to tell you guys why it happened?

Maybe the answer wasn't what some wanted to hear or it wasn't pc; but the end result comes from a lack of understanding and demonstrating basic proficiency & one that almost killed other people. The reason some of us came out with such a hard stance was in the knowing and not appreciating the endangerment to others.

If you want to go out and solo ice to your heart's content, no problem with me; or peter pan yourself off a cliff, really have fun with it; awesome. But, the point at which we try and justify endangering others when they clearly don't know the risk, then someone has to step up and point it out and say it's not right and not acceptable.

Here is the interview the climber did with Good Morning America yesterday. Co-workers were asking me about it all day.

cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/pl…

I think this thread is getting so much response is because we are all trying to figure out what could be going through a persons mind to make such a fundamental mistake. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to understand to make sure it never happens to me.

The interesting thing in that interview is that he mentioned his primary anchor "failed" then his secondary anchor "failed". Is he trying to save face in mentioning he had a backup....or was his thought process at the time "I have two solid pieces of webbing for an anchor" focusing on redundency and forgetting the very basics of not running rope through webbing?

I hate the frikkin' media in this country. "Miracle on the Mountain" - oh puhleeze! How about "Dipshit on the Mountain"?

Doh! Looks like I just ran out of self-restraint. Time to go climbing!

Holy shit. That guy is an IDIOT.

Holy shit. Good Morning America is IDIOTIC.

After that interview, it is plain that the guy was, and still is, obviously clueless.

What is funny is that he would go on T.V. and talk about what an idiot he is...what he should have said is, "I was an idiot, and I had no business being out there."

wow.. that interview was definitely interesting.the only reason I can think of running the rope through the webbing and not leaving biners is that he was cheap...or is he that much of an ass hat? either way he is paying for it now.

OMFG. I can't believe he went on national TV and admitted he did something as stupid as this. Good luck finding new climbing partners...

Here's a scenario that all the lawyer types...

Let's say the second person who went up ended up sawing thru the webbing and falling to their death. Would it be possible for the guy who set up the anchor to be charged with manslaughter? It seems as basic a concept as...driving 150mph in your car and crashing and killing a passenger.

I thought with the last administration gone from the white house, that it was again cool to admit mistakes, even if they were glaringly idiotic. I hope that, even though this wasn't a fatal mistake by some unbelievably lucky chance, Vail Valley SAR would have gone up to take a look at the anchor. That in and of itself would eliminate some of the speculation and clear for all of our consciouses what really happened.

There are some "more likely" scenarios climbing and threading for rappel then letting the others top rope, but why would he have needed to go back up, pull the rope and go home...

if he led, and did set up a top rope, and that was what the others climbed on, then he could have gone back up to clean and getting lowered through the anchors would create enough friction to cut the anchor, at the end of the day I could see this too happening.

But with out a "formal report" or other folks chiming in that were there, we may and will likely never know. Is he an idiot...i don't know, did he make an idiotic mistake, yeah. Is it one that has happened numerous times and is still likely to occur in the future of course, we are human and make mistakes.

One thing that I would like to see more on MP is we judge the actions/ behaviors, not the person, we are all fallible, (or fall- able) we just need to learn, and be careful when and who we climb with...we assume individual risk, it's all over the guidebooks, etc. There is no reason to trash someone just because they blew it.

I just don't see how ANYONE, if they have any experience at all would untie and pass the rope behind the webbing, missing FIVE steel rappel rings, and then retie into the rope and ask to be lowered. A MAJOR brain fart! Too weird.

Going on national TV also seems strange to me in that why would a person want to admit to the world what happened? Good that he isn't banged up any more though...

let us just learn from his mistake and move on. The guy is obviously suffering enough without being used as a punching bag.

OK, so he made a mistake that many people have made. A careless or dumb one, I can't say which. And how??? I dunno either, and that's past now. I wouldn't trust him to set anchors for me, but that's anchors.

Regardless, It seems now we are talking about character.
Personally, I'll thank him for taking the heat for what he did and not blaming inherant risks of the sport or someone else. That takes more guts than a good number of people had.

I might not trust his anchors, but at least he'd make an honest neighbor.

phil wortmann wrote:let us just learn from his mistake and move on. The guy is obviously suffering enough without being used as a punching bag.

Well said. What Bubb said is true too.

All you judging "armchair quarterbacks" need to just leave it and him alone. I GUARANTEE EVERY ONE OF YOU has made a mistake of some sort in your life that was foolish and costly.Me included. So look in the mirror to judge. Take account for yourself. And if you want the real answer about what happened, what was he thinking- quit thinking for him and ask him.

He took full accountability and has handled his mistake well. Its not his fault either that the media "pumps" it up. I quote- "It wasn't the sport that failed me, it was me who failed. I made a serious and foolish mistake"- Cri. Good job keeping good light on the sport for us all. I am sure he is as happy and relieved as we all are that it was him and not one of his partners. Sheesh.

Like many have said- learn and move on.

Doing what he did is NOT a mistake. We all make mistakes all of the time. What he did is complete ignorance. If you are that ignorant, you don't belong out there.

To go on television and allow a dramatization of your ignorance, and sit there and talk about your child, just makes the guy's judgement seem pretty consistent with his accident.

He might be a nice guy, but fuck, he was mad that they were going to cut his jacket??? Give me a break. The guy was out of his element, and his ignorance and bravado put others in danger.

If you have been climbing since age 15, you don't 'accidentally' back up your anchor, and then run the rope through both pieces of webbing. He was obviously thinking clearly enough to use a backup. And threading webbing is not something you do quickly. The guy needs a copy of Freedom of the Hills. Do any of you EVER rap off of webbing? Unless you are in the deep mountains, it is terrible form. It is dangerous for anyone who comes across your rap station afterward.

John J. Glime wrote:Doing what he did is NOT a mistake. We all make mistakes all of the time. What he did is complete ignorance. If you are that ignorant, you don't belong out there.

• I forgot to finish my knot once and lead a route that way, at my limit on runout gear.
• So did Lynn Hill.
• Bill Wright broke his spine lowering off and anchor on the "wrong side" of the rope. Guess what- no tension!
• Jim Erikson fell to the ground soloing and had to drag his own body out from the flatirons backcountry
• People regularly rap "off of" their ger loops. I know a guy who did.

Each of the above mentioned people got to live to live it down, in time.
I guess we're all dumb/bad/ignorant etc... and it merits suspicion on the part of the public. For my own part, my partners always check my knots before belaying me now. OK, It might feel annoying after 8 years of never forgetting again... but I can also take it that they love me enough to see me through to another day. Beats the heck out of ridiculing me on the internet.

The guy made a horrible "mistake." I'm also glad that he didn't blame the pursuit of "climbing"; he took responsibility for it.

On the other hand, he should probably quit climbing. If he can make such an obvious "mistake" and not correct it immediately, I think he should take up another hobby where a "mistake" doesn't mean a life is lost.

--Marc