Bolting the Gunks!

I figure if trad climbers want to try to make sport routes be trad routes then sport climbers should be able to make trad routes into sport routes.

Pro's Con's? :D

ps: i don't want to bolt the gunks.. but the comments that pure trad climbers say sound just as ridiculous

Ok, I'll bite even though your statement makes no sense and I have never heard of anything that would give support to that statement. So, to support it one would have to start with a sport climb. This is a climb protected by bolts cause no other option exists. To make it a trad climb one would have to create an earthquake or something very powerful that would fracture the rock and make natural protection an option when it was previously nonexistent.

Yes, I saw your comments on the route at Rumney. I saw climbers (sport and trad debate adding a bolt to a route that has been there for many years. This is completely unrelated to your antagonistic comment above.

Sport climbers have made trad routes sport by adding bolts to a climb that has been done with natural protection only. I am unfamiliar with trad climbers making a sport route trad (as you pose above) other than skipping bolts and placing gear instead. Can you site any examples.

Jake D. wrote: ps: i don't want to bolt the gunks.. but the comments that pure trad climbers say sound just as ridiculous

Can you be more specific? Which comments? Why ridiculous?

i am very intrigued to see where this goes. hahahahaha we should get some pretty nasty comments on this one, people dont like their ethic challenged so this should be interesting

for an example of a crazy thing a trad climber has said:

this is from the sky pilot forum:

Adding bolts when other gear will work is wrong. If everyone could get on every route then what is the point of even bolting a line ?

bolting the line is so everyone can get on without being potentially dangerous or deadly... that comment didn't make a shred of sense...

here is another example:

Bolts don't belong in the vicinity of good gear...sound like a protectable crack to me.

the climb isnt even a a crack, and the gear up there is past the dangerous part...

So to take this even further...if person A is constantly cleaning up the messes of person B, then person B should have a right to dirty it up again?

The only way a trad climber makes a sport climb is by chopping bolts that shouldn't be there in the first place. If bolting cracks is a person's style then they should stay in the gym.

What's next? Bolting holds?? Chipping? If you can bolt a trad climb, why not chip it too?? Then it would be really safe and easy.
I have no qualms about clipping bolts, but they should be reserved for climbs that HAVE NO PRO.

As far as the post above concerning crazy trad climber's comments, the thoughts are scattered but what they are saying is you shouldn't bold where there is gear, crack, pocket, seam or whatever. If the line is too scary or too dangerous CLIMB SOMETHING ELSE!! Why ruin what might be a challenge for someone else by brining the essence of the climb down? You don't see me climbing RX routes, because they aren't part of my goal set. It doesn't mean I want to bolt them to make them safe for me. I'll either get up there and be ready or I WON'T do it.

This is what happens when I respond to posts before drinking my coffee!! Especially to a troll post!! (I should know better).

Scott McMahon wrote:What's next? Bolting holds?? Chipping? If you can bolt a trad climb, why not chip it too?? Then it would be really safe and easy. I have no qualms about clipping bolts, but they should be reserved for climbs that HAVE NO PRO.

the part that is in question does not have any protection, therefore by you theory we should put a bolt in this section to alleviate the ground fall potential.

also please dont put chipping and bolting for safety on the same level they are completely different things

matthewWallace wrote: the part that is in question does not have any protection, therefore by you theory we should put a bolt in this section to alleviate the ground fall potential. also please dont put chipping and bolting for safety on the same level they are completely different things

If you don't like it don't climb it, or top rope it. It's an established route. Climb it in the style in which it was established. What is "safe enough" differs from climber to climber. There are plenty of climbs out there. We don't have to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator.

Geoffrey M wrote: If you don't like it don't climb it, or top rope it. It's an established route. Climb it in the style in which it was established. What is "safe enough" differs from climber to climber. There are plenty of climbs out there. We don't have to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator.

i agree there are other climbs but in rumney a sport climbing area many things that were lead on skecthy gear have since been bolted for safety. i know that i not going to find many people on my side in this particular forum but its just opinion

also, greoffrey, is a ground fall safe enough for you???

Geoffrey M wrote: If you don't like it don't climb it, or top rope it. It's an established route. Climb it in the style in which it was established. What is "safe enough" differs from climber to climber. There are plenty of climbs out there. We don't have to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator.

The FA approved the change.

It may seem that chipping and bolting are different but are they? They both permenantly affect and change the rock, correct? Yeah chipping is worse, but it still damages the rock. What if instead of adding a bolt, you just chipped out jugs? Would it be safe enough then? And isn't it interesting how chipped holds and sport climbs go together like chocolate and peanut butter? Don't get me wrong, I'm not against bolts and will clip them if they are there...but if they aren't, well they aren't. Are we going to bolt every RX route that exists??

As far as it being a sport climbing area, does that mean since Pawtuckaway is mainly a bouldering area, the bouldering ethics apply to the trad climbs there? Why not make it like the sport park in boulder canyon and bolt the crap out of everything. I just think if the climb is beyond your "head" limit, go climb something else that is safer or go to the gym. Just because a climb is 5.2 or whatever and RX doesn't mean that bolts need to go in to make it safe. Climb one of the 10,000,000 other routes that ARE safe. I don't want to see anyone get hurt, but if you think it's unsafe...well go to a safer bolted routed or toprope this one.

This is a old and overly debated thing. But it keeps coming back up. If no one thinks its "wrong", why do they keep coming here asking for people for their approval and acceptance? Typically if you feel compelled to ask if it's OK, it's usually suspect.

That's cool that the FA got asked and approved the bolts. Again I'm not Mr. Super Ethics, but I have to ask WHY?? Just go to another route, or bring your head level up and climb it. One bolt is cool, but then Joe so and so thinks that it could be even safer with another bolt. Who are you to say he can't since you approved the first one? Next thing you know you have half body length bolts on an establish gear climb.

Again, I'm not against clipping and I'm not the ethics police. it just seems like a slippery slope. Bolt where the pro is non-existent or leave it alone and climb something else. Not everything needs to be accessible to everyone, and if you look at my profile I'm not an elitist 5.13 climber. But if I want something I'll work up to it, or not send it at all. Go find your own personal FA and bolt it any way you want. Know your limits I say.

Next thing you know, this is what you get...
mountainproject.com/v/color…

scott there is actually a moratorium on bolting new routes at most of the main crags at rumney... so having it turn into sport park or something stupid isn't going to happen.

Sky pilot as it's in the guide right now has no warning about a ground fall.. Perhaps in the new guide Ward will have 11b R since i doubt it'll get a bolt before the guide goes to print.

most of the guys who bolt stuff at Rumney are also pretty accomplished trad climbers as well.. it's not like they will do stuff for shits and giggles without considering the outcome.

Scott McMahon wrote:isn't it interesting how chipped holds and sport climbs go together like chocolate and peanut butter?

Rock damage is clearly unique to sport climbing:

I'm assuming those are piton scars? Agreed they are a disgusting amount of scars on that line, HOWEVER I think we've moved away from that since Yvon and Frost starting pushing the advent of clean climbing. Even with aid climbing, guys like Jeff Lowe stress the ideal of constructive piton placements that after time will accept nuts and will no longer need to have pitons used. One of the things that is bad*ss about climbing is the aspect that it continuously pushes itself as a sport.

Assuming that we are talking about ethics TODAY, why go backwards?

Hopefully that didn't happen to to that line in the recent past. That's pretty horrible...

Scott McMahon wrote: Even with aid climbing, guys like Jeff Lowe stress the ideal of constructive piton placements that after time will accept nuts and will no longer need to have pitons used. .

This to me is chipping.

Jake D. wrote:Scott there is actually a moratorium on bolting new routes at most of the main crags at rumney... so having it turn into sport park or something stupid isn't going to happen. Sky pilot as it's in the guide right now has no warning about a ground fall.. Perhaps in the new guide Ward will have 11b R since i doubt it'll get a bolt before the guide goes to print. most of the guys who bolt stuff at Rumney are also pretty accomplished trad climbers as well.. it's not like they will do stuff for shits and giggles without considering the outcome.

I definintely don't want to see anyone get hurt. I just look at the "worst sport climbs" thread and is pretty disturbing. As far as the NH climbs go, I know that most of the people setting up routes are top notch ethical climbers, so no shots were intended. I was speaking more in generalities, but referencing that these things are ARE happening. The original question posed to us was about turning trad routes into sport routes, not particularly about Sky Pilot and it's safety; and although it might be a question for fun or controversy there are folks out there bolting trad climbs etc.

Coeus, agreed that it does seem like chipping. The next question to be determined is is bolting worse that pins or vice versa. Should we be using available removable pro or leave fixed bolts.

Again, I'm no bolt nazi. I'd rather see a new bolt put in where a sketchy pin was previously. I just think that we need to take a closer look at what we are doing before every climb becomes a general clip up. Not to say those aren't fun, but then we are missing the point.

Scott McMahon wrote:I think we've moved away from that since Yvon and Frost starting pushing the advent of clean climbing. ...Assuming that we are talking about ethics TODAY, why go backwards?

I figured you would say somthing like that. Is this not EXACTLY the cas ewith sport climbing? We've moved away from that since Caldwell & Graham (& many others) started pushing the advent of natural sport routes. Assuming we are talking about ethics today, why imply that all modern sport routes go hand-in-hand with chipping?

johnL wrote:Are you actually saying that sport developers aren't currently chipping? That it's a thing of the past? I'll have what he's drinking.

I believe thats exactly what he's saying and for the vast majority its true. There may be a few Joe Brooks types out there still chipping but they are not in the majority and the tactic is held in great disdain.

Again speaking in generalities, but although I sure there are chip trad routes out there, you see often see chipping in bolted crags that. And yes I'm aware that Jardine chipped holds in Yosemite. Maybe it's just the sport routes that are reported or exemplified, but I've never read too much about chipped out trad routes. They always seem to be chipped SPORT routes.

I'm sure you can provide examples of chipped trad routes and that's fine as I'd like to know about them. I'm also aware that most sport climbers, bottom to top echelon have high ethics and standards. I'm not debating that.

You just don't see chipped out, over bolted trad crags. That's what I'm implying. If I'm wrong, well I'm wrong. I refer again to the original statement "I figure if trad climbers want to try to make sport routes be trad routes then sport climbers should be able to make trad routes into sport routes."

It's an antagonistic statement meant to creat debate.

johnL wrote:Are you actually saying that sport developers aren't currently chipping? That it's a thing of the past?

Are you actually saying that trad and/or aid and/or mixed climbers aren't currently using pitons? That it's a thing of the past?

My point is that both activities damage the rock, fundamentally change the nature of the physical climbing (aid or free) and are UNACCEPTABLE (though obviously piton use is still widely accepted). As a sport climber I'm sure some of my sends have benefited from the chipping of others, but you know what, none of my big-wall free-climbing would have been possible without those nice 2-finger pockets (pin scars) every 3 feet. What's the difference?

As far as which activity is more ancient, I would be willing to bet that in 2009 more pitons will be hammered, than holds will be chipped for sport climbing. I know that I've personally hammered more pins (~10?) in my life, than I've chipped holds (0), how 'bout you? I would also argue that, per capita, there are probably more trad climbs with pin scars than there are sport climbs with chipped holds. Are there any thin cracks at Eldo that DON'T have pin scars?

There are plenty of valid arguments in favor of trad climbing, but "it doesn't damage the rock" is not one of them.

I'm going to modify my above statement. Both activities are not "unacceptable". They are both equally vile, by which I mean, they are somewhere between not vile at all, or the worst thing Man has ever done, depending on your point of view. Neither is worse than the other.

Due to naivety on the part of trad climbers, one activity (pinning) is still largely acceptable, and the other is not (chipping).