The Fiend of Indian Creek meets The Friends of Indian Creek

Getting to be Creek season for those that don't climb there in the winter. Was hanging out in the Creek in Jan. and trying to get into trouble when my buddy(the friend)said it's time to clean out the wag bag collection stations. Oh yes I'm the fiend. No Problem let's go.

Didn't make the crossing in the car so we took off on foot to the Bridgers. Kinda cold, falling in was a blast. Must admit some generous donations, like 4,50 dollar bills and quite a few 20's. All toll there was about 1600 dollars collected over the fall and 800 dollars collected over the spring. Pretty good, except for the fact that a couple of toilets are about 2400 dollars for the 2 seasons. Believe the "Friend" told me there were 4 plus some 5000 dollars worth of wag bags last year.

Must note that Super Crack collection station yielded less than 80 dollars. Not much for a crag that can have as many as 30+ cars on a busy fall weekend not too mention has had the most bags taken. If 30 cars had 2 people per car for fri.-sun., that's about 180 climber days or dumps as the case may be. I know I'm old but at 2 dollars a dump that's about 360 dump dollars for one busy day at Super Crack.

Seems like the cost is more than the climbers are willing to give. Everybody just says how great the Creek is, well it's time to show it. The Friends have done their part now it's time to do yours. Don't think a few should carry the burden, like selling tee shirts or heaven forbid doing a bake sale. Would rather see the ladies out climbing in their Prana wear and I know the dirtbag guys aren't going to be in the kitchen.

The Fiend says close the Colorado Plateau to climbing and save our cracks, yes I'm definitely crazy. Mid night illegal climbing only with jail time being the cost. Oh yes miss those days in county. If you want the Creek to remain yours and not be controlled by the Federal agencies then cough up at least 2 bucks every time you take a dump at the Creek and dispose of wag bags the correct way. Don't leave them at the donation vaults as some have. Your white trash just don't act like it.

Oh yes this post and it's content is mine an mine alone and in no way reflects the opinion of the Friends of Indian Creek. So if you have a problem with it you have a problem with me and not The Friends of Indian Creek.

Also learned that the Friends are looking to purchase a concrete open air vault for possibly Super Bowl area. They will need the cash.

Can't wait for winter, oh what am I saying, you can't climb at the Creek in the winter. Budman

What your thoughts about people who donate generously to the stations but prefer to not crap in a bag ? Is their nefarious crapping under cow patties redeemed by paying for the less fortunate to crap in bags ? (I hear some of these scoundrels hide in the scrub and watch the deed).

BTW - It sucks they closed the creek to climbing from Nov to end of March

Hey Budman, thanks for your efforts.

Many salutations.

Bud,
Long time no see. Hope you are having some good times along witht he bad.
Thanks for pointing this out, maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but it can't hurt.
And thanks much more for putting the hard work into it, and een more than that, for caring enough to do so.

Is the concrete dumper a FOIC project, a BLM grant, or a AF thing? let me know, I might be able to help.

Mike1 BTW - It sucks they closed the creek to climbing from Nov to end of March

Indian creek is closed for climbing in the winter??? Where is that posted?
I agree with this post. I donate everytime and encourage others to do so. This collective effort will save Indian Creek.

"Behind every jewel there are ten thousand sweating horses"
(cover of the tensleep guide book)

JonL should be banished from this site for suggesting camp fees at Indian Creek. The relative lawlessness of IC is what makes it so great. If you've got the money to help out, please do. Corporate donations to FOIC are even better. Look back to your dirt bag days of yesteryear a give a little extra so others can keep living the dream.

I get the whole "tragedy of the commons" argument, but by taxing people to camp, you are inevitably making it harder for the dirt bag demographic to stay there. IC is one of the last great refuges for the wayfaring climber and filling it with a police presence would be a travesty. If you've got the money to help, please do. If you don't, then make sure that your impact is zero. Fees will only insure that many climbers will be regarded as a criminal class while pushing them to establish new camps in pristine wilderness areas outside the the prying eyes of Johny Law.

Will Butler wrote:JonL should be banished from this site for suggesting camp fees at Indian Creek. The relative lawlessness of IC is what makes it so great. If you've got the money to help out, please do. Corporate donations to FOIC are even better. Look back to your dirt bag days of yesteryear a give a little extra so others can keep living the dream.

I guess you like people leaving plastic shit bags around there. A dirtbag is often a just a dirtbag.

That's a ridiculous statement. Of course I don't want people leaving wag bags strone across the desert. Pack it out, like everything else. Its our personal responsibly as stewards of land to leave it in the same manner in which we found. And by dirtbag I mean a person who has chosen to live his or her life chasing seasons and amazing climbs. This is typically one of the most responsible users groups out there. Trash, I would argue, is far more likely to be left by the visiting weekend warrior.

I'm in complete agreement that camping at Indian Creek should become pay sites to help manage the impact on the land and help protect access. I told the BLM that last time they were writing a management plan. Does this mean the dirt bag golden age is over? Perhaps... I have spent weeks of time there over the years, and it keeps getting worse. It's sad to see the desolation at some of most "loved" campsites. Are most users responsible? Yes, but as the use of the creek unavoidably rises, the 10-15% percent of irresponsible users grows proportionally. I think the regulation of camping could be tiered depending on the facilities: maybe a plush outhouse, dumpster, and campground host at a $20 dollar a campsite Superbowl and a primitive but managed $5 a campsite Bridger Jacks, etc. Would that put Johnny Law on the scene? Maybe, but it's better than shit piles, uncovered shit pits, scavenged firewood, dogs harassing cattle, trash in the fire pits, and so on. And what dirt bag wouldn't want the job of campground host?

Banning fires is another option... and easier to enforce.
It would reduce the number of parties present, the total amount of trash and destruction, etc.

"the dirtbag age" at Indian Creek was over when the new guidebook came out, when Parallelojams was released, and when those damn splitter camps started. In the nine years that I've been climbing there, which is not that long, I've seen the demographic move to entitled hippy trustafarians who see it just as a bastion of perceived freedom; and do not realize the complexities and vulnerabilities of the canyon country as a whole. Fuck 'em, charge for camping, I wholeheartedly agree.

Rampant tickmarks in the desert, raves at Bridger Jacks, that shit is inexcusable.

Will Butler wrote:I get the whole "tragedy of the commons" argument, but by taxing people to camp, you are inevitably making it harder for the dirt bag demographic to stay there. IC is one of the last great refuges for the wayfaring climber and filling it with a police presence would be a travesty. If you've got the money to help, please do. If you don't, then make sure that your impact is zero. Fees will only insure that many climbers will be regarded as a criminal class while pushing them to establish new camps in pristine wilderness areas outside the the prying eyes of Johny Law.

I made right around $10,000 last year. If I want to go anywhere interesting, it has to be on the super cheap.

So please understand where I'm coming from when I say the following:

FUCK THE DIRTBAGS.

If letting a few leaches (who don't contribute a damned thing to society) continue to leech means we end up ruining an irreplaceable resource, then I say they have no right to that resource, and no reason to expect my sympathy.

I spent a week in the Colorado plateau last year. When it snowed in the Creek, we bailed back to Moab and paid for camp sites at Big Bend for 4 nights. We could've stayed for 10 more. We did this because we scrimped and saved and didn't blow our money on weed back home.

If you can afford to drive all the way out to Indian Creek, you can damn sure save up a little bit to cover camping. I am sick and tired of hearing all of this "but what about us poor dirtbags?" horseshit. Just because you've "nobly" devoted your life to climbing doesn't mean that you can take as much as you can from an area and not give an ounce back.

The era of karma-neutral dirtbagging is over. It has been for decades. If you think you can live like that, you'd better be giving something back. Otherwise, you're just a fuckin' freeloader, and I'll be damned if your refusal to give back is going to cost me what I work my ass off to do.

I'd wager that dirtbags make up less than 1% of the annual users of Indian Creek. And shit, $3/person/night is $90 a month. That's 13 hours a month at minimum wage. 13. God damn! Shit, you could stop smoking weed and have that much at the end of the month.

your darn tootin man.. I here that shit loud and clear, fuck the dirtbags

I asked some peace of shit dirt bag out there last fall if i could borrow a hatchet or axe to split some wood i brought to burn. and this peace of shit started telling me about the microscope were under. Listen you fuckin dirt bags, I don't give a fuck, when i go out there IM gonna have a good time, have a fire, if they want to charge for camping good it will drive these free loading peaces of shit out of there. IM not worried about a few bucks, shit take your microscope and shove it up your ass dirtbags

i say fuck the dirtbags too. will, you are on some sort of utopian-acid if you think that dirtbag climbers are one of the most responsible user groups. my guess is that you are a sophmore in college, or about the same age but dropped out. when you get a little older and start realizing how good things always get ruined by people who don't really realize the TOTAL value of the system, you'll see what i mean.

mike1 wrote:What your thoughts about people who donate generously to the stations but prefer to not crap in a bag ? Is their nefarious crapping under cow patties redeemed by paying for the less fortunate to crap in bags ? (I hear some of these scoundrels hide in the scrub and watch the deed). BTW - It sucks they closed the creek to climbing from Nov to end of March

The question is:
Is it ok to crap and place cow patty over it and then donate to the crap in bag fund ? Does the good compensate for the bad ?

Yes or No

It is just that easy.

mike1 wrote: The question is: Is it ok to crap and place cow patty over it and then donate to the crap in bag fund ? Does the good compensate for the bad ? Yes or No It is just that easy.

To be honest weather you donate or not I would hope you try to dig a proper cat hole at least.

brian scoggins wrote:

"So please understand where I'm coming from when I say the following:

FUCK THE DIRTBAGS.

If letting a few leaches (who don't contribute a damned thing to society) continue to leech means we end up ruining an irreplaceable resource, then I say they have no right to that resource, and no reason to expect my sympathy."

"We could've stayed for 10 more. We did this because we scrimped and saved and didn't blow our money on weed back home."

"I am sick and tired of hearing all of this "but what about us poor dirtbags?" horseshit. Just because you've "nobly" devoted your life to climbing doesn't mean that you can take as much as you can from an area and not give an ounce back."

"If you think you can live like that, you'd better be giving something back. Otherwise, you're just a fuckin' freeloader, and I'll be damned if your refusal to give back is going to cost me what I work my ass off to do."

• **

sorry dude, but didn't you get the memo? the last election was a referendum on supporting all the free-loading fucks that make bad choices. being successful or being a good steward is no longer respected or rewarded.

Cpt. E wrote: sorry dude, but didn't you get the memo? the last election was a referendum on supporting all the free-loading fucks that make bad choices. being successful or being a good steward is no longer respected or rewarded.

Werd!

" "the dirtbag age" at Indian Creek was over when the new guidebook came out...I've seen the demographic move to entitled hippy trustafarians who see it just as a bastion of perceived freedom...Fuck 'em, charge for camping, I wholeheartedly agree.

Rampant tickmarks in the desert, raves at Bridger Jacks, that shit is inexcusable.
"
By "Fuck them" I hope you mean the entitled...What really irks most friends of the creek is that it's not the dirtbags that prompted this debate, since a. they are a relatively small population and b. it's usually not the dirtbags that leave trash and shit and tire marks in the desert, it's the larger demographic of hypocritical yippie trustafarians and weekend warriors.

Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to differentiate between true dirtbags and poser yippies without looking in their wallet or their cooler (which would make this task would be incredibly simple). The challenge here is realizing that any planned intervention penalizes everyone equally (for better or for worse) and coming up with a protection plan that doesn't kill the dirtbagging.

I think we mostly agree that the wild west mentality of keeping a place unregulated is great in unpopular destinations but only provides the opportunity for overuse and impact here. Just a thought, but maybe an entrance fee would be more appropriate? that would allow the well stocked dirtbag to maximize their meager savings while taxing the folks that have day jobs or have make the trip to Moab for another $8 6pack of designer beer.

Bottom line: Regulate!
There is a solution that lies between regulation JTree style and the destruction at IC.

awesomejacksonhole wrote:I would gladly pay $100/night if there were a nice hotel near IC. Fuck the dirtbags. If you can't join the global economy and buy lots of stuff you might as well live in a cave. Viva capitalism.

Sorry, but I hate the ignorant. The world is black and white, right. Yea, viva pitching in and doing your part to help out, such as cleaning things up to help give climbers a good name. Or if, like the situation is here, we have shown ourselves that we as a user group are not responsible enough to not trash the place, then we will have to wait for "the man" to come wipe our butts for us again, almost literally. It's not just the dirtbags that are ruining the place, it's everyone. We need to be better stewards. I personally like the idea of paid camping/fees only because this would give the people who are taking care of the place a revenue to do so, that way it will be worth their time and actually get done. This isn't "the man" trying to stick it to us. This is us showing that we are too short sighted to take care of our own crag, and that is sad. If you don't like regulations and laws, live your life in such a way that they are not needed.
As for the dirtbags, why don't you guys just shut everyone up by actually pitching in? That way when people start bitching about dirt bags you can point to all the good things you do and set a good example and make them eat their words. Instead of priding yourself in vengefully sucking off the system that cares not for you, why don't you guys include yourself in the system and try and change it from within? You drove in on that road that was created using tax revenue, you camp in the site that you certainly didn't create yourself (and if you don't, you created selfish unnecessary impact by trampling another piece of sensitive desert, so I guess I'm saying those established campsites are good from a environmentally concious hippie dirtbag perspective), and you walk up approach trails that were not built in the wink of an eye by the hand of an omnipotent god. Roads, campsites, and trails are all created to focus and therefore at least manage impact. Why can't a plan be something to the effect that you pitch in financially or you pitch in with your own two hands? Seems like that might be an idea to consider as well.
As for myself, if I go to IC I save my money and drive down there. I use the roads, the campsites, and the shitter and I don't pay a dime for any of it. I pack out my trash and generally clean up after myself, but I need to do more to pitch in, so next time I am down there I will have to bring a suitable donation to one of those sites.
Also, the VAST majority of people I meet are not bad people. They are just trying to get through life and have a smile on their faces. This goes for dirtbags and capitalists alike.