Guide or Rock School?

Hey guys,
In June of this summer I will be heading out to Colorado to visit family and climb/backpack with my younger brother. I am newer to climbing and seeking a good understanding of leading trad. I have, and continue to, read extensively on the subject and have led some small 5.4’s and 5.5’s locally last fall. I know what to do in theory; however I feel some proper instruction would be beneficial to continue safe climbing. Being a self taught midwest climber it’s been a slow but great ride.

I was hoping you guys could provide me with some input as to a good way of going about learning to lead trad whether it be guides or rock schools in the boulder area. I really want to get out and learn to climb in the flatirons. I looked at Total Climbing rock school out of Boulder and that looked decent, a 3 day course for $525 (expensive, but you gotta do what you gotta do). Any thoughts?
Thanks,
~Tony Balza

You should offer to give a good belay, bring the beer, and laugh at all their jokes, and I'm sure you can find someone to take you out in the Boulder area.

There are many routes on the Flatirons that are easy, but they are also run out in places. If your not comfortable leading it might not be the best place to start. Clear Creek Canyon has tons of easy closely bolted routes. For getting into leading I recommend just leading tons of routes well below your limit. Vedauwoo is a great area with lots of easier climbs and great gear about 2 hours North of Boulder.

Tony,
sounds like you are pretty psyched about learning about climbing and learning how to learn to lead trad climbing. I'm a guide. I live and work in Boulder and I have 40 years of climbing ezperience and have been eaching climbing for over twenty years. In the Boulder area there are alot of options. Colorado Mountain School or Total Climbing do a good job of teaching people how to climb and are safe guides.

I take people out on a more individual basis and work with them closely so that they feel safe and confident in their climbing and leading ability.

I really think that the best way to lead to lead is with professionals that know how to teach and how to push you beyond what you think you can achieve for yourself. Of course you can always avoid the extra cost of hirng a professional and go out with people you don't know well and hope that what they are telling you is valid but really $500 or $600 is a small investment if what you are learning is the real thing.

Give me a call or call Total Climbing or Alpine World Ascents.
All of us are professionals that love what we do and you won't go wrong with any of us.

Jack

jack roberts wrote: Of course you can always avoid the extra cost of hirng a professional and go out with people you don't know well and hope that what they are telling you is valid but really $500 or $600 is a small investment if what you are learning is the real thing. Jack

Just because someone isn't a guide doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

It is more of a risk, but $500 or $600 is a lot of money to most people. For that much money you could buy a sweet rack plus plenty of books that will teach you how to make anchors, climb multipitch, and self rescue. Then with your sweet rack you can go out and practice your placements and anchors on climbs well below your limit. You're out the same amount of money, but you get to keep that rack.

Although if you're not tight on cash the above poster would be great to learn from. Jack your article in Alpinist about Mt. Hungtington was inspiring. Thanks.

I've taken a three day course with the CMS (Colorado Mountain School, part of Total Climbing) and was very pleased with the level of instruction I received for the huge chunk of change I had to part with ($425 is a lot for me!)

I also paid to learn trad climbing from my friend (he was a guide), but have also taught others trad climbing for free (no cert for me yet). It really just depends on who you meet, and since you: won't know anyone out here, and you're self-taught, I'd recommend going out with a professional.

Hope you enjoy Colorado!

If you've got the cash hire a guide to teach you. You'll learn more in those 3 days than any partner off MP would teach you. However, if you don't climb a ton those skills will get rusty quick and maybe paying out the big bucks is not such a good idea? In that case just pick up somebody and go out TRing things and maybe play around mock leading and such with the books cracked open at the crag?

Safe climbing,
Aj

There are a lot of great climbers that know what they are doing in the Boulder area. Knowing how to teach anything is another skill. Hire a guide. They know how to climb and know how to teach. Two different things. They will emphasize safety over getting to the top. Mark Hammond @ CMS is great and was my teacher many years ago. Todd Reeves @ CMS is also a great teacher and one of my best climbing partners.

Tony,

There is alot to be said about good guides and the accelerated learning they can provide. From what I hear, Jack stands with small comapany at top end of the profession.
That being said, repitition of good habits and a practical understanding of a bit more than the basics are both key elements in learning to be what I'd call a compentent and safe leader. I did my first trad leads at Taylor's Falls on the wisconsin/Minnesota border under the tutelage of vastly experienced and extremly gifted mentor. There are some great folks in the Twin Cities and southern wisconsin whom I'd bet would be more than enthusiastic about prepping you for your first climbing trip out here.
The concern's in the posts above are completely valid. I've seen "certified", a guide drop clients into a frozen creek repeatedly while they were belaying(the guide was going back and forth between smoking cigarettes and talking on his cell phone). The poor soaked bastards parents kept telling my wife and I he was the best guide in all of Zermat. I doubt it. As with any climbing partner, get a feel for the guide/partner/new mentor on low threat terrain and work your way up. Keep a mental note of how confident and compitent the appear and also make note of the how the other climbers you run into respond to the what and how your partner is teaching/mentoring.
It's a crap shoot really but when I'm sketched out and the weather's coming fast, I still resort to the things Howard taught me. His teachings haven't failed me yet.

Good luck,
T. Metzger

JacobD wrote: Just because someone isn't a guide doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

maybe not, but if they're AMGA certified your odd go up dramatically.

use your money to build a rack and take some road trips! get out and get real on-the-rock experience with a good friend you can trust (your brother?!). everyone has to start somewhere and we dont all have the money and outlook on life to hire "guides" to show us the way.

Tony,

Out here in Colorado we have the Colorado Mountain Club (CMC).
The club runs a bunch of skill classes in climbing, skiing etc and they have classes for intermediate climbing/leading/anchors etc that are pretty inexpensive.........you might look into something like that in and around your area. It's usually useful and less expensive than hiring a guide.

You could also just splurge for a one-day class (intro to leading? $225.oo??) and see how you like it. Take your brother with you, split the cost of the class and then practise together afterwards. You wouldn't be spending a butt load of money but you would get an idea of what a skilled and safe instructor is like and you would have a very good idea of what is involved.

As stated by several people on this post, you can for sure find skilled climbers out here who lead safely and would probably be willing to show you the ropes but how are you to know? There have been several accidents recently where climbers hit the deck, pulled out all their protection on the way down, anchors pulled etc...and all of these accidents could have been avoided if the person climbing would have had proper instruction or knew what they were doing.........

You don't need to put out the money and hire a professional guide but just be very careful and selective with whomever you decide would be a good mentor for you. There are many people out here who think they know what they are doing when in fact they have just been plain lucky that they haven't cratered. There are videos and books that you can rent that will give you a head start on the Leading Edge......

If you do go with CMS I also cast a vote for Mark Hammond...He is very good and is fun to spend the day with!

be safe out there......

Jack

Read Advanced Rockcraft (numerous times) and the keep doing what seems easy for you for awhile. Then work up to doing more difficult climbs after scoping out beta thru guide books. Be safe and you will have a great time.

I just want to thank everyone for their input; you guys make up an awesome community here on mountainproject. As far as a rack I’ve pieced one together a little at a time over the last year and a half so that’s not a big issue. I’m looking at this first trip as an investment in my future, probably more so then college will end up being with the state of things right now lol. That being said I’m probably just going to save up and spring for the CMS and maybe a guide for half a day to work out the kinks.

Thanks again guys, hopefully I can run into and meet some of you at some point.

Happy climbing,

~Tony

Good call Tony,
An informed and thought out decision almost always trumps rolling with what you find along the way in these matters.

As a side note or question: Why do you folks out there think we've seen such a drastic reduction in the whole mentorship idea when it comes to trad climbing. I know I came into things late and alot of changes had occured in the 5-10 years prior to beginnig climbing. But, there was still a small climbing community at the time ('89, I think?), and they accepted my brother and I quickly. These folks worked with us on all sorts of things and eventually Howard turned up excited to work with me and really mentor. Hell, I wasn't even old enough to by him beer at first! So where have all the good mentors gone?

T. Metzger

Hey,

I'm a completely self-taught climber. I've only climbed with someone who was a more experienced trad leader once. I'm still alive.(I think). I'm sure a lot of these schools are great, but if you read the available literature (Freedom of the hills, rockcraft, anchor essentials, etc) and stay in territory that is comfortable to you, you will do fine. Maybe I hesitate to advocate that you lay down a couple hundred of bucks because I'm a dirtbag college climber. Since you are probably not climbing massively technical climbs yet, the most essential thing is that you know how to place gear and build anchors, and this can only come from experience. Practice tying knots and building anchors on flat ground until you can do them in your sleep. If I'm around when you come out feel free to give me a shout and we'll do some laps up the flatirons.

Phil

I'll climb with you anywhere you want go for $150. If your interested in a little pre-field course study I'll be happy to meet up with at the Mountain Sun the night before to answer any questions you might have over a pitcher or two. If you've got the basics, I'll provide the gear and the know how. I'm serious about this if your looking for the authentic Boulder/Colorado climbing experience. Shit, you can even sleep under the climbing wall in my garage free of charge.

Hey guys,
I'm kind of in the same boat as Balza is. I've been climbing (mostly indoors) for years and do well. I didn't get outside until just a few years back and went straight into leading. I started with sport and did ok, but i'm a serious gear head and new trad was for me. I have read a number of books on anchors and leading but books don't = experience. I've only climbed once with somebody who knew any more than I did and that helped. As a snowboard instructor in the winter, I really agree with saying that somebody who knows how isn't the same as somebody knows how to show you how. I think finding somebody locally who is a good teacher is fine, but everybody on here is right, they know what has kept them alive up until now, but that doesn't really mean what they are doing is safe. So I would recommend a guide or school as choice #1. but then just make a judgement call on having a local show you what's up. The same judgement you will when you place that nut. Hopefully one day I'll save up the money to get to that next level in my climbing!

Will Butler wrote:I'll climb with you anywhere you want go for $150. If your interested in a little pre-field course study I'll be happy to meet up with at the Mountain Sun the night before to answer any questions you might have over a pitcher or two. If you've got the basics, I'll provide the gear and the know how. I'm serious about this if your looking for the authentic Boulder/Colorado climbing experience. Shit, you can even sleep under the climbing wall in my garage free of charge.

Why don't you just do it for free? (Well maybe some beer and gas money)

i have only been leading for about a month, and have many great partners/mentors, but i am still going to take a class this weekend that is all about gear placement. i feel that its better to have more knowledge than you need when placing your life or your partners life in danger. i am going through the Bob Culp climbing school in boulder. $150 for a half day. i talked with the instructor for a while while i was at the store, and he seemed pretty cool and knowledgeable. i completely agree with Wehling. some people know only what has kept them alive over the years, but not what is safe. go for the school, its a small price to pay for safety.

http://www.frontrangeclimbing.com