Crazyness on the Third Flatiron

brooks8970 wrote:FYI, for those of you that are new to the game. When a route is created (sport, trad, whatever), the first ascensionist decides the style and difficulty of the route for all future ascents. To change the nature of a climb after it is put up is disrespectful to the FA team and disrespectful to the climbing community in general. This isn't about trad versus sport or bolters versus bolt-choppers. This is about respect for the FA, plain and simple. If a change is deemed necessary on a certain route, all effort should be made to consult with the FA team or at least to respect their intentions. If you want climbing to be safer, you should stick to routes that were put up in a style that you find to be within your margin of safety. There are plenty of routes out there for all of us.

Great philosophy for modern routes, however...

The Third Flatiron was first climbed in 1906 by Floyd and Earl Millard, probably soloed and solo-downclimbed. All eyebolts and rap anchors were likely installed long after the first ascent.

Consulting with the first-ascent party will require a medium and a ouija board...

exactly. You can still run it out or solo it with the bolts. Though I don't recall any place where I really wanted another bolt on the Third...except at the start maybe.

The FA principle is up for debate. Not everyone agrees that because someone "got their first" they get to determine the rest of history. The world evolves and changes. I completely agree with Ron....there needs to be an approach to climbing that involves more viewpoints than the first. If you are so jacked on the FA idea...why aren't you climbing on hemp ropes, with hip belays, no chalk, eating sardines, and in hiking boots. I don't see that very often. If you were I'd have some respect. If you are going to push the "FA rules the rest of time" theory - back it up.

Again, not everyone has the same view of climbing or how this piece of inanimate rock should be used. sorry.

This thread is why I took up ice climbing in the winter :p

Kevin,

When the little kid in that video watches his father bounce down the front face you can explain to him and his mother that you really just wanted to preserve the rush of the climb...

Why is it we are so stubborn making a route safer doesn't take away anything from your experience...just don't clip it

To those who advocate making it safe because it's a beginner trade type route, a question:

When do you take the training wheels off? At what point is a climber expected to take responsibility for their own safety? 5.5, 5.8, 5.10? And where do they gain the training and experience required on harder routes that may be runout if there aren't easier runout routes?

Is it because this is a striking formation, an ascent of which is coveted by all and the resource is collectively owned? If so, then why not put a via ferrata up the Nose of El Cap?

Andy,
The ladies in sundresses probably wore leather tie up shoes and probably downclimbed the front ...Let's see how big your balls are if we take out the repel rings in the back and let you do it in true honor of the first acensionist. Perhaps you should reconsider your comments before appearing hypocritcal...or did your climbing shoes, chalk, rope, and rapel rings not make you feel any safer?

John,

It is going to be hard to guard against all decisions. With another bolt on that pitch the first pitch still has groundfall potential, people will still solo it, and put themselves at risk in a variety of other ways.

Better to argue that YOU (and others who share your view) want to climb it with more bolts, than debate that people won't die climbing because a few more bolts are put in. In other words, it is a legit argument to state you won't climb it with such dangerous fall potential and you would love to see a bolt - the "you don't have to clip it" argument has a long history...however, it is perhaps pointless to claim everyone who wants it left alone is somehow a murderous bastard.

People have downclimbed the thing many times. In fact many of the speed records require it I think. Also, this is just such a bad climb to have a bolting debate over. Though I guess the I'd like a long sport route on the 1st or 3rd flatiron crowd disagrees.

I'm going to put words in John's mouth:

There are parts of the Third flatiron route where a fall could cause serious injury and/or death. I'd like to see those portions with a bolt to prevent against that (unless there is decent pro available). It doesn't matter that the route is super easy for most climbers on this site...it still has deadly fall potential...why not protect those portions for those who don't want to take the risk, but still want to enjoy the climb? It doesn't change the physical climbing for anyone else...only the mental. You could just not clip the bolt.

I think that is what he is trying to get across.

Wow, what a passionate issue! It's great to see everyone debating this, it shows what a local treasure this thing is.

My opinion, leave it as it is and don't add a bolt. It would take a lot away from the climb. Sure, you can skip the bolt if you want but it it was there I'd probably clip it and part of the specialness of the route would be lost. That section is not much more run out that other parts of the climb, and slinging the anvil chicken head is sweet. A fall there would probably not be deadly although you could get a lot of road rash. There is pro available in a couple spots below the anvil, just nothing above it.

BTW, I just led this route again Saturday before the cold and snow hit. We were the only ones on the entire 3rd, how often does that happen on a 55 degree weekend day in the fall? Parts of it were icy and careful route selection was needed to avoid the falling ice in the gullies, but what a sweet day. There was about 5 inches of snow on the descent trail.

Long live the Third, a classic Colorado climb. Let's keep just the way it is.

thegreenalien wrote:I'm going to put words in John's mouth: There are parts of the Third flatiron route where a fall could cause serious injury and/or death.

There are parts of ALL the flatirons where any fall is gonna be a bad one.

We must protect people from themselves.
Gridbolt every square inch of everything, lest danger enter into the equation, heaven forbid!

I sincerely hope these arguments do not reflect the future of climbing in the Flatirons. Bolting the last pitch of the Standard East Face of the Third Flatiron so that someone is more comfortable leading it?

Tom, I think we actually make them do it; after the first full route, they will walk away from ever wanting to bolt another route ever again. Kinda like trying out smoking and your dad makes you eat the pack.

What kind of weak kneed sissy learns to lead on a 5.4? My 10 year old daughter started on routes harder than that. If you can't climb it with out more bolts, grow a pair or take up knitting, checkers or gin rummy.

This is climbing for cryin' out loud. Some of you sound so scared you probably shit your pants when the lights go out!

Flame on!

Deaun Schovajsa wrote:What kind of weak kneed sissy learns to lead on a 5.4? My 10 year old daughter started on routes harder than that. If you can't climb it with out more bolts, grow a pair or take up knitting, checkers or gin rummy. This is climbing for cryin' out loud. Some of you sound so scared you probably shit your pants when the lights go out! Flame on!

Umm...I think that about sums it up. Can we delete this thread and move on to cooler topics now?

Well, Andy, I think most of us were thinking it, but didn't actually say it. Indeed, it's time to move onto another thread.

Bob D'Antonio wrote: Actually there are more than a few people who learn on these type of routes. I wouldn't call them sissy or to grow a pair. You have be somewhat of Neanderthal to think a human life is worth less than bolt.

My point is that we shouldn't bolt every climb that seems scary. There are many safely bolted routes, gear routes and top ropes to learn on. I don't know of a single climbing acquaintance that wanted to lead the 3rd flatiron to learn on, but didn't because it was too scary. They followed someone competent, or they learned on the many other routes available and climbed in when they were ready.

Or, they never got comfortable leading 5.4 runout and probably stopped climbing - that's good too!

Edit: I thought you'd laugh at that post, Bob! You're too serious. You need to come to Woody's Thursday night and let me buy you a beer.

I can't complain (or shouldn't, but I still do). I hope all is well with you, too.

Can you break free on Thursday evening? If not, I am still coming up soon to your place for some fine dining very soon.

Edit: As I said, if they are only leading 5.4, there are plenty of opportunities to improve and raise their skill level before attempting the 3rd.

Bob, sorry to hear about the restaurant.

It would be great to see you Thursday, though, and I've got the first few beers!

Here's my solution. If someone doesn't feel safe climbing the runout section on the Third Flatiron(or any other route for that matter), find someone who will lead it for you or hire a guide.

Bruce