Bolts - Use or Lose?

craig512 wrote:Thanks Ron! I forgot you had mentioned that one previously and so I didn't do a comparison. The problem I had with the Thunderstud was that it was being advertised that it was also known as all of the other types of anchors. This seemed like a cheesy marketing ploy to me. I since found the manufacturers website at marksmenmfg.com/ and it seems more legit now. Although even the manufacturer website does not list the strength ratings, which seems very odd to me.

Thunderstud strength ratings are on the Marksmen website here: marksmenmfg.com/thunder-stu…

Brian in SLC wrote:One thing I'd be curious about though, is, I wonder if there's been any independent testing of the Thunderstud bolts?

Thunderstud technical info is also listed here:
confast.com/products/techni…
According to this page, the Thunderstud bolts are:

"Listed by Underwriters Laboratories (UL), Board of Standards and Appeals (BSA), City of L.A. Meets or exceeds U.S. Government G.S.A. Specifications FF-S-325 Group 11, Type 4"

Aha! Thanks Ron, I knew it had to be on there somewhere!!!

Brian in SLC wrote:I like the KBIII's. That new designed wedge really seems to snug down tight. I never get a spinner from a KBIII. The Thunderstuds have an older design with a couple of tabs sticking up, that, in the longer lengths tend to get beat down when driving into a hole. Not nearly as reliable, I'd think, and not much material driving the wedge sleeve onto the cone. I'd think their pull out strengths would suffer a bit with that design.

I've placed more than 500 Thunderstuds, and have had only a few (<5) spinners. I use a blow tube and a test-tube brush to remove rock dust from the hole before driving the bolt; maybe that helps.

Here is a comparison of the ultimate tension (pull-out) strength for the 3/8" stainless-steel Hilti and Thunderstud:

Bolt Embedment Ultimate Tension in
Depth 6000 psi concrete (lbs)
Hilti Kwik Bolt 3 2.5" 7,270
Thunderstud 3" 5,975

Thus the Hilti KB3 has superior tension strength, though I would argue that the Thunderstud is "good enough".

I think the Hilti KB3 is superior based on design and performance if price is not an issue. If one is placing carbon-steel bolts, which are significantly less expensive than stainless steel, then the Hilti KB3 is clearly the winner.

However, for stainless steel, I find the Hilti KB3 is out of my price range, and I'm willing to settle for the lesser (but still adequate) performance of the Thunderstud, at a much more reasonable price.

Edit: with the new lower price of $2.20, the 304 stainless-steel Hilti KB 3 is more competitive in price with the Thunderstud at $1.80, and its superior design and performance deserves serious consideration.

Hilti KB3's are the best wedge/stud bolt hands down. Powers' powerbolt (aka 5-piece) is the best sleeve bolt. You really can't go wrong with either of these.

Dan Levison wrote:Hilti KB3's are the best wedge/stud bolt hands down.

Agree, Dan. Do you know where you can buy the 3/8"x3" stainless-steel Hilti KB3 at a reasonable price? $4.37 each (the price quoted by Hilti) is a bit steep for me.

Dan Levison wrote:Hilti KB3's are the best wedge/stud bolt hands down.

I'd also consider (and have placed) the Fixe and Raumer as well. I really like the double cone Raumer for softer rock. Both are pretty burly bolts. Way more "mass" than a comparable Hilti.

Concur on the Powerbolts.

-Brian in SLC

Even stainless corrodes eventually, 1/2" 5 piece Powers bolts are removable thus maintainable. I guess it comes down to the question of whether or not you want to doom your route to re-drilling & patching long after your gone. Swiss cheese

Kirk Miller wrote:Even stainless corrodes eventually, 1/2" 5 piece Powers bolts are removable thus maintainable. I guess it comes down to the question of whether or not you want to doom your route to re-drilling & patching long after your gone. Swiss cheese

I've seen reports of problems trying to remove the Powers 5-piece bolts, so not all of them are removable.

As far as replacing stainless-steel wedge bolts: one more hole a few inches from the original hole? The original bolt sunk into the hole and covered with rock dust and epoxy? Probably 20-30 years or more down the road? Hardly swiss cheese.

Ron Olsen wrote: As far as replacing stainless-steel wedge bolts: one more hole a few inches from the original hole? The original bolt sunk into the hole and covered with rock dust and epoxy? Probably 20-30 years or more down the road? Hardly swiss cheese.

This is an oversimplification, often the rock is not condusive to another hole 4" away because of it's features. Also if you are going to place a new bolt every 20 years it IS going to be swiss cheese before too long!

I just don't understand this line of thinking...So what if the bolt has to be chopped to be replaced, that's someone elses problem.

How about if it is your route to take the pride in your ascent to place an anchor that can be removed and replaced without damaging the rock or having to drill extra holes. But hey THAT would be expensive and you have a dozen other routes you want to bolt SO.........

Instead we are talking about finding the best deals on sub-par anchors so that we have lots of money left to bolt lots of other routes.

Basically it's "Screw the next generation...it's not like they are going to have any virgin stone to bolt anyways so they can clean up the mess"

Triplex bolts are completely removable....just an FYI

Kevin Stricker wrote: This is an oversimplification, often the rock is not condusive to another hole 4" away because of it's features. Also if you are going to place a new bolt every 20 years it IS going to be swiss cheese before too long! I just don't understand this line of thinking...So what if the bolt has to be chopped to be replaced, that's someone elses problem...Basically it's "Screw the next generation...it's not like they are going to have any virgin stone to bolt anyways so they can clean up the mess"

Wedge bolts do not have to be chopped -- just remove the nut and pound the bolt into the hole. I overdrill all my holes to allow this. Also, all my routes are in Boulder Canyon -- hard granite. Invariably another good placement a few inches away. All my routes are moderates, and exact bolt position is not critical.

And stainless-steel bolts and hangers are likely to last far longer than 20 years in the dry Colorado environment.

I do take pride in my routes, and work very hard to make them clean, safe, and fun.

So maybe wedge bolts don't work for you -- but they do work for me -- and I'm not "screwing" the next generation by using them.

Thanks for the debates guys, this thread clearly illustrates the different opinions of many route setters/cleaners. When creating this thread, I didn't want to start a "Wedge vs Sleeve war". I was just looking for some advice on Wedge bolts; as Sleeve bolts are far to expensive in SST.
It's the collective opinion of all parties involved in developing the cliff that 3/8" SST Wedge bolts are what will be used. We'll undoubtedly use the Red Heads or the Thunderstud.
In the environment they're being placed, I expect them to last well beyond 20 years.

Update to one of my above posts.
I found the RedHead Trubolt online here for just $0.86 each.
This puts it more in line with the Thunderstud in terms of shear strength and price comparison.

Ron Olsen wrote: Agree, Dan. Do you know where you can buy the 3/8"x3" stainless-steel Hilti KB3 at a reasonable price? $4.37 each (the price quoted by Hilti) is a bit steep for me.

Ron, here you go ($3.40 each):

ecrater.com/product.php?pid…

Hey...what gives?
Same site, same product, same seller...different price.
ecrater.com/product.php?pid…
$2.20 per...

craig512 wrote:Hey...what gives? Same site, same product, same seller...different price. ecrater.com/product.php?pid… $2.20 per...

My mistake; I quoted the SS 316 version, not the SS 304, which is what Ron is looking for...

craig512 wrote:Hey...what gives? Same site, same product, same seller...different price. ecrater.com/product.php?pid… $2.20 per...

One is 316 (marine grade and usually more spendy) and the other 304 stainless.

Dan Levison wrote:

Ron, here you go ($3.40 each): ecrater.com/product.php?pid…

craig512 wrote:Hey...what gives? Same site, same product, same seller...different price. ecrater.com/product.php?pid… $2.20 per...

Thanks for the info, guys! I updated the table I posted previously to reflect the lower prices of the Hilti KB3 and the Redhead Trubolt.

So the 3/8"x3" Hilti Kwik Bolt 3 in 304 stainless steel is available for $2.20 each ($110 for a box of 50) with free shipping.

That's not too much more than the $1.80 each I paid for Thunderstud 304 stainless steel bolts.

I'll definitely check out this source for my next bolt order. (Of course, I still have about 80 Thunderstuds to use up before I run out...and with 6" of snow on the ground, and more still falling, it will probably be a while before I can get out again to work on new routes...)

So Bob and Ron....just curious how many bolts have each of you replaced in your long careers? I find that people often have many misconceptions on the process, especially if they have not done it before. BTW I can spot a epoxied hole in a matter of seconds but maybe that's just because I know what to look for. My point was just that if we think " No big deal we will just drill another hole" we end up making decisions that may not be the best in the long term. As for hammering the bolt into the hole...if it was NOT drilled deep enough then you have really screwed the pooch when you try to remove it.

I agree with you both that here in Colorado, SS wedge bolts should last for a good long time. I placed over 200 at my own expense before I started getting better hardware from the ASCA. My concerns with the wedge bolts has more to do with the low torque settings and the inability to know when and if the bolt really needs to be replaced. If Locktite is not used they tend to become spinners and are then retightened later. Hopefully whoever retightens the bolt does not overtighten it....the scary thing to me is not being able to know.

Personally I bolt all my new routes with SS Triplex bolts. My routes tend to be desperate, and are all bolted on lead. A single bolt is often keeping me from the hospital, so I want to make SURE it is a bomber bolt both for my sake and anyone else who repeats it. Because of the cost I only put up a couple routes a year. That is just MY decision. I know that properly placed a 3/8" wedge bolt is bomber. That said I have funked out several that were not so well placed.

So the moral of the story is, if you are using SS wedge bolts to make sure you use Locktite and bring a torque wrench until you have the feel of a properly tightened bolt. Then we can all be happy knowing the bolt will last for a long time and not worry about it.

"I overdrill all my holes to allow this".
I do also Ron, for that same reason.

Kevin Stricker wrote:So Bob and Ron....just curious how many bolts have each of you replaced in your long careers? I find that people often have many misconceptions on the process, especially if they have not done it before.

I am curious what misconceptions you see? I am really NOT trying to antagonize you or troll you at ALL. I was just thinking that this thread has a lot of really good info and you appear to have some really strong views on the bolting process backed by some good experience and I really would like to hear it. Would be a great read and a great addition to the thread over all. What is your bolting modus operandi?

And a huge thanks to Ron, Bob, craig, etc... for some great thoughts on wedge bolts specs. I have always been comfortable with the Power's and it's strength rating but this thread has given me something to chew on...

-n