Sea of Holes

Kevin,

Thanks man.

I have not tried testing with hanger side flipped, but I am curious so I think I will give it a shot when I get home. I think that I am just going to carry a couple extra really lightweight lockers and if I get into a situation where there is a high risk of something unclipping, (like when I go back to re-climb this pitch) I will just slap a locker on it.

I did try some testing with the gate on the bolt side of the hanger, and I noticed that it did not unclip nearly as easily as in the other scenario. The gate would open really easily, but it seemed like there was too much in the way and/or the shape of the biner from this angle just wasn't conducive to slipping off the hanger. Weird.

It is awesome if you are going to head up there and replace even more gear. You have done much more than most. If you do make it up there... let me know what you find! I would be curious to know what the remains of that bolt even look like. I am pretty sure we left a draw up there... it has probably been snagged by now, but whateva.

-Mack

OK, well one other thought- with some pro I add a second biner to one end- revered and opposed, if I think it wil be gate or edge loaded, becasue I don't necessarily trust even a locker.

With bolts I don't have lockets and add a second (longer) sling on top so that it is not weighted unless hte first breaks or unclips, then the second will go tight. 2 don't fit in a hanger well and lever funny- that's why you have to put the secondary one on top as looser... but if the first one does unclip or snap, it is better than nothing...

I smell the makings for a new snap-lock sporty draw

Mac: Look on the bright side, you can still drink beer.

Vince called me from the hospital but by the time I was on my way, you had been released. Sorry I missed you. Glad to hear you're on the mend. Yes, injuries SUCK.

Mark Nelson wrote:I smell the makings for a new snap-lock sporty draw

One of the mags recently reviewed a wire gate biner with 2 gates- and inny and an outty.

Kevin Stricker wrote:Going to try to get out there this weekend to replace those bolts.....

Kevin, give me a call if you'd like some help with this. Did you recently change your email address?

Jason

Any experience with these?

alpinist.com/doc/web08s/rb-…

Justin Cantrall wrote:In your test, how was the hanger oriented relative to the ground? Did it look like this? fixeusa.com/images/products… (look for the image top-center with the downward arrow.) The hangers shown on this page ( climerware.com/unclip.shtml ) appear to be mounted incorrectly and may increase the probability of failure.

I am not sure how I originally tested this... but I think I tested them with the hanger in the proper position. I re-tested this though to make sure, and it didn't make too much of a difference. Once that biner goes sideways and then you pull the draw tight... pop!

Justin Cantrall wrote:Does the unclip/gate-opening happen at the same amount of rotation (90d CW/90d CCW) with the carabiner oriented both ways (hanger-facing/bolt-facing)? A carabiner's open & crossloaded strength is usually about 1/3 of maximum; therefore, even if it does not unclip, if it does open, and/or rotates then loads perpendicular to the spine, failure could still occur. Most hangers that I've seen (of the modern Fixe-style anyway) do not have the flat plate mounted to be exactly perpendicular or parallel to the ground, rather they are mounted at an angle (~135d) (see Fixe image above.) If both failure modes happen at different intervals, then this implies to me that there is a correct and incorrect orientation of the carabiner to the hanger. Conversely, if both failure modes happen equally at +/- 90d, then the primary considerations to take when clipping the hanger are the fall line and rope movements once above. Even before this discussion, I worry about the loose hangers I sometimes see. These could rotate more freely with rope movements into a failure-prone orientation, then freeze there once loaded with weight (fall.) In addition to loading against the bolt in a less-than-ideal manner. Not good.

This was hard for me to test properly, but as I said earlier, it did seem like the gate opened easier when pried open with the bolt stud, but the biner didn't pop off as easily. It was weird... it is also SO HARD to tell what the draw is going to do in either orientation in a real life scenario. Testing is only a theoretical representation of what could happen.

Justin Cantrall wrote:The most bulletproof solution is to use lockers on every bolt, but that's far from practical. What we need to find then is the least failure-prone orientation to affix the carabiner to the hanger with. The climber will still need to be mindful of the the climbing movements and fall line above. And of course, to carry a few additional lockers, just in case. Sorry if I'm too wordy, and please correct me if any of my assumptions are erroneous. Thanks, Justin

I don't think that we would need to throw a locker on everything... really, if this is a straight up and down clip 'em up, I think the risk of this happening is minimal. It seems that the situation you want to watch for is when you are clipping a bolt and then traversing quite a distance and your rope is going to create seriously sideways pull on the draw, at an almost 90 degree angle. When you think about it, these situations are not exceedingly common.

The next time I lead this pitch, that bolt is getting a locker. If I am lucky, the bolt above this one wont blow out and I will send the pitch!

Cindy, thanks.

Satan, balls and plastic wrap,

-Mack

I finally made it out to replace the two old and one missing bolts on Sea of Holes today. I did not have the time or equipment to remove the two old compression bolts, so if anyone is looking to do some community service your help would be appreciated (contact me through this site for some beta).

After hearing about this accident I assumed that the bolt that failed did so at the threads, as that is where split shaft bolts tend to be weakest. I was surprised to see that the bolt had broken about 1" down inside the hole. Having replaced quite a few bolts, this is only the second split shaft bolt that I have seen that broke there. I do not know if it was a fluke, but considering the seriousness of most bolted routes in the Platte I will be replacing all of these type bolts in the future..even the beefy 3/8" ones.

As for the draw coming unclipped, i think it is not that surprising as the line takes a 90 degree turn at this bolt. A shoulder sling with lockers should be used on this bolt both to reduce drag and to prevent this type of accident in the future. I also feel that if the top biner had been flipped that the draw would not have come unclipped BUT it is still possible that the biner could be cross loaded with the angle of forces generated.

Chris, I think you were super lucky that you did not break your ankles on the ledge below the third bolt and did not deck hard on the slab below. You had all your guardian angels working hard for you that day!!

Kevin,

Thanks for the update and thanks for all the work you do in our beloved Platte.

It is interesting to know that the bolt broke IN the hole. Especially considering that this isn't exactly something that could have been over torqued. Spooky crap.

From what Vince said he saw, I am guessing that I nailed the rest ledge pretty hard as he said I was doing my best to imitate the dude in the beginning of Hard Grit. Something had to put me in motion and I am guessing it was that ledge. I suppose I could have decked harder than I did, but I did nail that slab below pretty hard. I am still in disbelief that I didn't break anything. I am happy that I didn't, but it is over 1 month later and my hand is still swollen and barely at 50 percent.

Those hardcore angels were working their asses off. I think they are enjoying the vacation they are on right now!

-Mack