Another climbing ethic dispute

I've had a run in with another "yougnling" like myself preaching to me ..NOT to "tick" on the boulder...-the thing is- ...is that he and I were both using chalk on the problem we were working on ..so why not tick?..what are your thoughts??

Leave the chalk for the folks in the gym. Outdoors, do your best to leave no trace...

Ticking is a bit different then using chalk. Using chalk is here for now. LNT is always good. Go with what is the REG for the area. Ticking a hold on a route leaves an unescessary eye soar for those going to do the problem after you. Maybe also it is your beta on the problem. Maybe not someone elses.
IF you must tick. use small ticks. Use a brush. Clean them off.

A funny example of this is my first time up at flagstaff 4 years ago my boss took me to the first overhang. He wanted to point out a key foot hold. He ticked that thing with like a 1.5 ft lightning bolt that stayed there for about a good year before it was not noticable. I recall saying at the time ( i was new to climbing ) that is pretty F'd up. now everyone is gonna see that ugly ass white line on this cool problem. Wish i had the ballz to stand up to my new boss at the time ahhaah. Now that problem is glued :) Even more riduclous. but anyways.

Be kind and brush your ticks. Or better yet. Dial your beta enough to not need a "taped" hold to complete it.
Chalk is mark enough. Adding points of reference to the stone is 99% of the time just nonsense.

I guess I'm really old school on this one. Back in the day we used to use the local dirt in our "chalk" bags, or at least some mixture of chalk and the local dirt (I know this probably doesn't work in humid, loamy soil areas). I was out of climbing for a while and when I went back to climbing some of my old favorites in Eldo, without using chalk the climbing was significantly harder, a self perpetuating problem. I've never liked the "follow the dots" thing, but I guess it is just an outgrowth of the increased climbing population. The obvious fix for me is to go to more remote areas, which I do. But if you are going back country climbing, please leave the chalk at home.

SAL wrote:.... Using chalk is here for now...

Maybe so-- but a young tiger like Lucas will be setting the standards for the future. Might as well set the bar high. Don't get into the habit, and you won't have to break it.

Well thats the thing ..I try to use no trace but ..when bouldering ..for me its a different story...

to me:

Bouldering: doing harder then normal moves low to the ground where falling off is non leathal and able to work the problem.

in this case they are ..obviously hard moves..so i would say you need chalk....well i do at least..also..if its hard..I would mostlikely fall off.. therefore having to repeat the moves up to that point..resulting in more chalk on the moves..

so in realiy a tick is a mark pointing to a large-dim chalk print

although I only tick on where I need to do dynamic moves, to a hard-to-see spot ..so you can see the hold quite easy with a tick..

Larry DeAngelo wrote: Maybe so-- but a young tiger like Lucas will be setting the standards for the future. Might as well set the bar high. Don't get into the habit, and you won't have to break it.

So Larry climbs always with out using chalk.
Looks like he set the standards for todays kids. Chalk is still on the uppy up.

How bout rock shoes. Popular problems and routes for that matter get all kinds of mark ups from such use.

Also. Just climbing in general.
Incredible hand crack has an hip/ass smear all the way up it. So how does one fix problems like that?

There is a line I think within climbing ethics and LNT. yeah Chalk leaves traces. So do climbers, people, dogs, cars blah blah. If you want to do away with the traces of climbers.
Solo naked and barefoot. its the only way to obtain the LNT dream.

Just scrub your ticks. You'll feel better about yourself on the drive home.

..WOW chill it with the Larry mess ...and i feel good about myself when I get the problem..I just wanted and excuse to kick the kids ass who told me not to tick..nah Im just messen..

its all a lie .. the kid and i were bouldering and i decided to tick this hand around the arete because i kept missing it.. and right after i ticked it ...i felt bad..hahaha ..i really did...:(

I do agree that tick marks are both helpful and annoying. They're nice when you put them there yourself, but it's annoying when you approach a boulder that's looks like it's crawling with huge lice.

I have used a Super Soaker to blast the rock clean. You have to be strategic about when you do it obviously. If there's enough of a community of boulderers in your area, it's worthwhile to stage a bouldering/drinking/trash clean-up/hold-&-tick-mark-cleaning party.

lucaskrajnik wrote:in this case they are ..obviously hard moves..so i would say you need chalk....well i do at least..also..if its hard..I would mostlikely fall off.. therefore having to repeat the moves up to that point..resulting in more chalk on the moves..

This is very true. The starting holds on many boulder problems are caked with chalk. For these, one could add a little non-detergent soap--as long as you're not in a very ecologically sensitive area (ie alpine)--to the water in your Super Soaker and you'd be amazed at what you can get off!

--Marc

lucaskrajnik wrote:..WOW chill it with the Larry mess ...and i feel good about myself when I get the problem..I just wanted and excuse to kick the kids ass who told me not to tick..nah Im just messen.. its all a lie .. the kid and i were bouldering and i decided to tick this hand around the arete because i kept missing it.. and right after i ticked it ...i felt bad..hahaha ..i really did...:(

YOur gonna rot in hell! hahahaha
damn kidz.

Not a larry rant. Just find it a bit comical when the LNT card is played on chalk when there are plenty of other aspect of climbing that do just as much harm. If we made all the stuff that left a mark illegal in climbing we would in fact be soloing naked and barefoot. Which is pretty fun.
no harm intended.
cheers

Russ Walling wrote:If you are going to tick, at least clean that crap off there when you are done. Not everyone needs the Helen Keller treatment, nor wants it.

Got a kick out of the ergophobe's report on the 'taco, of Hans' and Yuji's record ascent of the Nose...

"On the warmup pitch, Yuji whipped. A good 25-30 footer. That shook him up a bit. Some folks have said it was for effect or to get the jitters out. Actually, Yuji said there was a tick mark and he threw for it and things didn't go as planned. Ooops."

I'm not a fan of the tick mark. But, I usually never run into them. Folks use 'em on routes so far above my head that I never really see them. Except in climbing videos.

I'm a chalk-a-holic, though. Sweaty hands. Its become such a habit, that, I "dip" when I don't even have a chalk bag on, always to my internal amusement. It seems to have become a calming mental exercise...

From John Gill's website:

"One immediate consequence of my introduction to gymnastics in the fall of 1954 was to adopt the use of chalk in rock climbing and buildering activities - a simple innovation that, once introduced to fellow climbers, evoked a more athletic view of rock climbing."

"Chalk and Gymnastic Dynamics . . .
The use of momentum in gymnastics provided a key for a controlled dynamical approach to climbing. It seemed perfectly reasonable to me that rock climbing - as a kind of gymnastic activity, rather than an extension of hiking - should have a substantial dynamic component. Simple jumps and "lunges" had been done for years - but difficult skilled and precise gymnastic "releases" upon rock required greater strength, more effort, and more practice. The age of the dyno had arrived (although the word itself didn't appear until the late 1970s). The serious use of momentum became a choice of style, and not simply a desperate technique of last resort. And no gymnast would work on challenging releases without chalk - neither should a climber."

Not exactly a tick mark, but food for thought as long as we're on the subject of over/under/appropriate/inappropriate use of chalk...

Richard Radcliffe wrote:Not exactly a tick mark, but food for thought as long as we're on the subject of over/under/appropriate/inappropriate use of chalk...

True. that is a classic mark of history.

On that I also was thinknig this week of things such as old crusty bolts from FA's that are for sure useless to climbing saftey but mark the history of the route. Directissima on chasm is a good example. Some folks think they should be removed but most think they are classic pieces of the history of the climb. So should old gear be removed as should chalky holds be powerwashed?

Richard Radcliffe wrote:Not exactly a tick mark, but food for thought as long as we're on the subject of over/under/appropriate/inappropriate use of chalk...

Yeah.. somebody definitely needs to scrub that off the Columbia Boulder; what an eyesore. :)

--Marc

Richard Radcliffe wrote:Not exactly a tick mark, but food for thought as long as we're on the subject of over/under/appropriate/inappropriate use of chalk...

If that is wrong, I don't wannabe right!!!! What Yabo marked up and envisioned on acid in 1977 is not a friggin tick mark. Gratuitous yes, but a tick mark, no sir. To me, the whole tick mark thing is a matter of my age. When I was younger, I felt like they added an edge to my climbing abilities.......now I still do! :0

SAL wrote: True. that is a classic mark of history. On that I also was thinknig this week of things such as old crusty bolts from FA's that are for sure useless to climbing saftey but mark the history of the route. Directissima on chasm is a good example. Some folks think they should be removed but most think they are classic pieces of the history of the climb. So should old gear be removed as should chalky holds be powerwashed?

And if you weld a nut you will get fined for it..ahaahaha..

Marc Horan wrote: Yeah.. somebody definitely needs to scrub that off the Columbia Boulder; what an eyesore. :) --Marc

Ha ..whoever washes that off give me your address and we can discuss it on a very peronal level.! ..

SAL wrote: There is a line I think within climbing ethics and LNT. yeah Chalk leaves traces. So do climbers, people, dogs, cars blah blah. If you want to do away with the traces of climbers. Solo naked and barefoot. its the only way to obtain the LNT dream.

It'd help; but if we really didn't want to leave an impact, we wouldn't be at the rocks or in nature in the first place. Everyone could just climb at the gym, but the manufacturing of plastic holds can't be too good for the environment either. I think it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

The point is to be as considerate to the environment you're in as possible. If you see an unsightly tick mark, give it a little brush. See some broken glass? Pick it up. Trash? You get where this is going. It's amazing how many people comment on the empty water bottle I carry with me to pick up butts and glass and other trash. "What a good idea" I always hear. I have yet to see one of these people adopt my "idea."

The phrase "leave no trace" is a bit of an enigma, considering most of the places some of us visit already have a trace or human presence. Not only do we need to attempt to mitigate our immediate impact as much as possible, but in a lot of areas we should be helping to restore already impacted areas as much as possible. "Pack it in, pack it out" is no longer appropriate. "Pack it in, pack as much as you can carry out" should be what is being taught now.

Oh, and I recently made a similar post about the Horsetooth Tick Monster. You can read about it here.

There is no limit to the human ability to rationalize.

Hank Caylor wrote: If that is wrong, I don't wannabe right!!!! What Yabo marked up and envisioned on acid in 1977 is not a friggin tick mark. Gratuitous yes, but a tick mark, no sir.

I'm with you on that one Hank.

You can take my tick marks when you pry them from my cold, dead chalk bag.

I am with you Jay. I used to get pissed about them as I thought they ruined my onsight. Not always the case. I am short and need to find and often do, intermediates that work well. No worse than doing a route with draws hanging. Also find that mine which I don't usually clean off are never in the right place for the next guy. Sometimes they do help sometimes they don't. Bring one of those big sticks and brush them off if you don't like them. Oh, and it is really hard to get to them on overhanging stuff, and after the redpoint I want to bask in the glow not clean ticks.