Free Soloing

Maybe volunteer, but not unprofessional.

Hikers scrambling about 14ers can fall just the same as on the Redgarden Wall. I don't have much a problem with someone's acceptance of risk when communing with their spirit by climbing on their own; but there is a good point made by knowingly putting others in danger.

Jared Workman wrote: Hell, Kor quit and became a JW after watching someone fall to their death and that guy was no wuss.

"JW?" I didn't know that about Kor. Interesting. Was it a friend/partner of his, or just something he saw from a distance?

{I've never had an issue with anyone soloing but you might still be doing some pretty severe psychological trauma to someone. Just seems fair to take that into account.}

Now I'm not typically a callus person but this seems a bit absurd. Are we supposed to account for all the possible repricussions others may experience due to our actions. I'm take it from the point of view that others are going to do things which effect me overtly, indirectly, and unintentionally. It is MY responsiblilty to deal with it regardless. Now dealing may involve everything from quiet internal debate to sluggin someone with pipe wrench. But in the end it's still MY responsibility to deal with the environments I live in and subject myself to.

Jake

If you drive your car to enjoy the scenery of a nice & scenic drive, get a flat, lose control, and roll your car taking your head off; should you think about how the ambulance driver is gonna deal with it? no.

But, if you drive your car and get it to go as fast as you can because you like the feeling of speeding down the motorway at 115, and end up taking out a family of four; should you think about those consequences? absolutely.

[Falling to your death because someone trips over your rope goes a bit beyond every day stuff]

Wouldn't it be his death? if he tripped over your rope?
Jake

Jared Workman wrote:You may be the toughest guy in the world but we can't expect other people to respond the same way we do. As you said in the History of Sport climbing thread, it's everyone's rock, from top ropers to hardened 5.13 trad climbers.

Just seasoned enough to understand the difference between how people might like things to work and how they actually do. I would also say that things aren't nearly as bad as these forums generally make them out to be. My field experience in twenty-eight years in this sport tells me that most climbers are pretty considerate of others.

I have only have two run-ins with other climbers - once in Eldo, and once at BRC. The person at Eldo and I eventually became friends, and the guy from the gym, whose problem was a personality clash, just learned to stay out of my way, and I extended him the same courtesy. Pretty much every other encounter has been positive, which is one of the reasons that I love this sport.

Jared- I knew Kor became a Jehovah's Witness, but hadn't heard it followed watching a climber fall to his death. I seem to recall reading an account of Kor and Galen Rowell climbing Salathe on El Cap, and Kor sharing that he was becoming disillusioned with living only for climbing. Shortly after, he left the sport. (only to reappear decades later and cruise Naked Edge *Edit: in Lycra*) Not doubting the part about a climber falling, but adding more to the story...

Jake-- no one suggested that bystander trauma is a reason not to solo. Only that soloists should take into account how widely their elbows actually swing, literally and figuratively, and act considerately to others--like not crowding them on a climb.

Ken Cangi wrote: It's true that most of the low-angle Flatiron slabs offer numerous paths of little resistance. My comment included a broader scope of the issue that you raised. Moreover, it is possible that the soloist wasn't using his best judgment. I don't know because I wasn't there. The problem here, however, isn't with the soloist; it is with your bad attitude and smart ass comments about the situation and anyone, myself included, who doesn't sympathize with you. I don't know who pissed in your Wheaties, but get over it. Your sarcasm doesn't inspire serious discussion. It just makes you look like an asshole. Stop trying to convince us that you are upset because of your fear for his safety. If he wasn't concerned, why are you? I suspect that something else happened and is driving your resentment. You clearly don't have as much experience as you would like us to believe, because you would never rant in this fashion if you did. Professional instructors get paid to teach their students how to safely deal with everyday situations like the one that you mentioned. They don't come onto MP to cry about soloists on the Flatirons.

Shawn, I agree completely about courtesy out there. I have to add to that(because I find it so interesting), I avoided the phrase "common courtesy", because things vary so much from one area to the next. The Flatirons and Eldo have a lot of soloists. Hell, they've got a lot of climbers total. What's considered courtesy at those areas is way different than say Bavarian sport climbing where you can have three party's all using the same bolts for belays on overlapping routes. Or France for instance. On the technical ice portion of the three summits route to Mont Blanc, guides and locals will literally push you out of their way and step on your rope to get ahead of you. It's normal courtesy there! (Can't say I think much of the typical french guide anymore).

Jake

By the way NSFOD, regarding the OP: I feel about soloing the way it sounds you do. Believe it's the purest climbing, offering the freest movement. But that's not really the experience I've had with it except for very easy stuff. Any harder made it too nervous and halting, though I wanted to get better.

JulianM captured perfectly the reason I stopped soloing...except for something like Freeway on the Second Flatiron.

Jake O wrote:Shawn, I agree completely about courtesy out there. I have to add to that(because I find it so interesting), I avoided the phrase "common courtesy", because things vary so much from one area to the next. The Flatirons and Eldo have a lot of soloists. Hell, they've got a lot of climbers total. What's considered courtesy at those areas is way different than say Bavarian sport climbing where you can have three party's all using the same bolts for belays on overlapping routes. Or France for instance. On the technical ice portion of the three summits route to Mont Blanc, guides and locals will literally push you out of their way and step on your rope to get ahead of you. It's normal courtesy there! (Can't say I think much of the typical french guide anymore). Jake

Jake,

I think you summed it up perfectly. Courtesy and etiquette mean different things to different people and groups, and that reality pervades every aspect of life - not just climbing.

Dunno know much about Ken, except he is a Masshole......Which explains a lot
But if it is Joe Vallone that started the thread he's an IMFGA Certified Mountain Guide.
Not that that means he has any experience or anything.....
Or that he was worried if the soloist fell and injured his clients then fell to his death, I'd think Joey would have had his hands quite full from the guys actions.

Ken Cangi wrote: ... You clearly don't have as much experience as you would like us to believe, because you would never rant in this fashion if you did. Professional instructors get paid to teach their students how to safely deal with everyday situations like the one that you mentioned. They don't come onto MP to cry about soloists on the Flatirons.

Ken, I wouldn't go this far about Joe, he's more solid than what he discusses in public. He's made a point, and it's really not a bad one.

I don't free solo for two reasons. 1. I don't find it enjoyable. I find it scary because I've fallen on sidewalks, so the grade is irrelevant. 2. I have too much left to experience, too many people to spend time with, and too many pitches left to climb. I don't want to risk it. Not saying soloers don't have 100% fulfilling lives, just a different mind set about it.

I don't have a problem with soloers. I think that those dear to them should have an influence on their decisions because they also will live with the consequences. However, I see nothing inherently wrong with it. I would however be peeved if a soloist climbed past me and put me in risk of a climber hat.

In truth, though, all climbers solo. Its just a matter of grades. As a beginner, I quaked in my boots on fourth class. As a little more seasoned beginner, I find myself doing things that I know involve the risk of a fatal fall, but feel comfortable with. Everybody has limits and a different way of calculating the the risk/benefit ratio; its just where you fall on the bell curve.

Cheers,
Evan

{I have never had the head for extensive free soling. However, I've always felt it is the purest expression of climbing and wish I enjoyed it more. I do well on ice, but on rock, it's just a constant battle with my head, so I don't do it much.} NSFOD

This is especially interesting for me right now. I've just finished a couple autobiographies by some greats. Bonatti and Lionel Terray are a couple names the majority of us know. Bonatti was adamant about his soloing efforts. I was surprised to the reasoning which led him to such great accomplishments at the limit of the possible, SOLO! It was generally speaking a loss in the faith he had for his peers mixed with a need to explore the possibilities and limits he possessed as one man, nothing more. He used solo movement both to express a big FU! to the nay-sayers of the day as well as a means to explore himself deeply on multiple levels.

Lionel Terray was not an avid soloist. Well sort of... He soloed extensively with his partners while setting time records for many faces in the alps. But he did so with a partner as that partner was an intrinsic aspect to what he was seeking overall. He felt he could not push his limits alone nearly to the extent he could with a partner; even if they were unroped. He wrote of the feeding off eachother's presence and energy.

Both men were incredible climbers and mountaineers. Both men redefined the possible for future generations. I think a huge part of what enabled them, or created the men we read about, was their being survivors of the war. War redefines the whole table of quality and value of life for it's participants (willing or otherwise).

Soloing held a different definition at that place and time. For these men it was an enabler for greater things and an opportunity for enormous gains which held the possibility of immense loss.

Just a thought,
Jake

Ken Cangi wrote: It's true that most of the low-angle Flatiron slabs offer numerous paths of little resistance. My comment included a broader scope of the issue that you raised. Moreover, it is possible that the soloist wasn't using his best judgment. I don't know because I wasn't there. The problem here, however, isn't with the soloist; it is with your bad attitude and smart ass comments about the situation and anyone, myself included, who doesn't sympathize with you. I don't know who pissed in your Wheaties, but get over it. Your sarcasm doesn't inspire serious discussion. It just makes you look like an asshole. Stop trying to convince us that you are upset because of your fear for his safety. If he wasn't concerned, why are you? I suspect that something else happened and is driving your resentment. You clearly don't have as much experience as you would like us to believe, because you would never rant in this fashion if you did. Professional instructors get paid to teach their students how to safely deal with everyday situations like the one that you mentioned. They don't come onto MP to cry about soloists on the Flatirons.

Ken if you go back to the beginning of this thread, You asked me two questions after my initial comments, You wanted to know why it bothered me and what my problem was. Pretty aggressive questions.

I simply answered your questions in all honesty. No smart ass comments, just my opinions and concerns that you asked for. The attacks and rants have only followed from you. Reread your last thread and listen to yourself. The language you use towards me and the rant you seem to of created seems to be the only thing counterproductive to my comments, opinions, and this thread.

You also asked me the same question you asked in the first response you made back at the beginning of this thread. I already told you why I was concerned. Maybe I don't have enough experience to know that I should not have been concerned, but my reason for it was already mentioned. Sorry you don't agree with me, you have a right to your opinion and that is fine with me, but I was concerned and I had a right to be as well.

I have no need to spray on this site about my experience, but if it really is something you need to know about so that I can prove the validity of my comments, then I would be more than happy to discuss it with you over the phone or contact me on this site. Better yet lets have a beer over it.

For now though whatever my experience is should not matter based on my comments and the direction of this thread. I have only created discussion, not a fight or a rant and definitely not trying to use experience to prove my comments here. I am not here to preach, rant, slander or use dirty words in my posts. Or to tell someone else his comments are worthless because I think he does not have enough experience to make an opinion. I am here to be part of interesting discussions, and share opinions just like everyone else.

This site is a public forum just like climbing, we can all choose our routes and voice our opinions. It sucks to be called an asshole and attacked for being part of a public discussion.

Thats it for now, I'm heading to Rifle for a few days so I can work on my experience.

By the way I still only Solo for the Chicks and the Money!

To bad the thread has been hijaked, I was interested in the original topic.

I free solo twice a week just under my trad limit and it really improves my overall climbing ability. Usually I pick routes I have done before but there is nothing that quite makes you feel you deserve a beer at the end of the day than the thrill of onsight freesoloing a route.

What freesoloing brings to my trad climbing is breathing, confidence and calm, the ability to downclimb my way out of trouble, and practice at NOT FALLING! I freesolo for the inner calm that comes afterwards and carries through to sketchy runouts.

I think it is probably a great personal quest. I solo up to the first bolt all the time! I could solo, 5.2 maybe, as long as it is short with long stretches of flat ground in between!

I kinda don't think it's that smart of a thing to do, but everything in life is calculated risk and this is just one more example. As long as you calculate your risk well and accept any consequences, it's all good!

Mark Nelson wrote: Ken, I wouldn't go this far about Joe, he's more solid than what he discusses in public. He's made a point, and it's really not a bad one.

I just read his BRC bio, and I am surprised at his attitude about this soloist. As I said earlier, it's not so much about the soloist as it is about Joe's approach. His snide remarks, defensiveness, and Cool Guy comments don't represent him well as a professional guide.

I met another AMGA guide from BRC, who seemed to believe that only AMGA guides were worthy of guiding in Europe. He was pretty cocky about it, which didn't impress me much - especially considering who the guide in question was, and his immense experience compared to this relatively new AMGA guide.

JPVallone wrote: Ken if you go back to the beginning of this thread, You asked me two questions after my initial comments, You wanted to know why it bothered me and what my problem was. Pretty aggressive questions. I simply answered your questions in all honesty. No smart ass comments, just my opinions and concerns that you asked for. The attacks and rants have only followed from you. Reread your last thread and listen to yourself. The language you use towards me and the rant you seem to of created seems to be the only thing counterproductive to my comments, opinions, and this thread. You also asked me the same question you asked in the first response you made back at the beginning of this thread. I already told you why I was concerned. Maybe I don't have enough experience to know that I should not have been concerned, but my reason for it was already mentioned. Sorry you don't agree with me, you have a right to your opinion and that is fine with me, but I was concerned and I had a right to be as well. I have no need to spray on this site about my experience, but if it really is something you need to know about so that I can prove the validity of my comments, then I would be more than happy to discuss it with you over the phone or contact me on this site. Better yet lets have a beer over it. For now though whatever my experience is should not matter based on my comments and the direction of this thread. I have only created discussion, not a fight or a rant and definitely not trying to use experience to prove my comments here. I am not here to preach, rant, slander or use dirty words in my posts. Or to tell someone else his comments are worthless because I think he does not have enough experience to make an opinion. I am here to be part of interesting discussions, and share opinions just like everyone else. This site is a public forum just like climbing, we can all choose our routes and voice our opinions. It sucks to be called an asshole and attacked for being part of a public discussion. Thats it for now, I'm heading to Rifle for a few days so I can work on my experience. By the way I still only Solo for the Chicks and the Money!

They weren't aggressive questions, Joe. They were questions. You are very touchy and defensive, for a mountain guide.

And stop putting words in my mouth. My original comment about a lack of experience wasn't necessarily directed at you, although if the shoe fits. I also never said or insinuated that your opinion was worthless. I stated, several times, that it was your sarcastic, whiny attitude that didn't work for me.

Look, knowing that you are a professional guide makes it that much more unprofessional to me that you would handle it as you have in this forum. Guides, and I was an AMGA-trained guide, should set an example of approaching situations with a problem solving attitude - not crying about mister "Cool Guy"'s soloing etiquette.

I would have explained to my students that they would likely encounter similar situations in the future, and I would offer them ways for which to safely manage those encounters when they occur.