Should I get adjustable daisies?

Hi.

This should probably go in the gear forum, but I'm interested for aiding, so...

I've read from some of you guys that its worth it. So I was thinking of purchasing a couple of the following (Metolius adjustable daisies):

mec.ca/Products/product_det…;PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442095823

Is this a good call?

How will these help me aiding rather than traditional daisies?

Everyone appears to prefer them, but perhaps some people prefer traditional daisies. Why?

Thanks, Graeme.

How will these help me aiding rather than traditional daisies?

No more fighting with your fifi to go in that pocket when your standing
in a less than comfy position in your aiders just pull.
Saves a lot of energy.
One Downside is that your not as close to the placement as with a fifi hooked directly to it.
(Thats why I still use a fifi in addition to my adjustables)

They wear out faster than regular daisies
but I used mine (metolius)for about 80 pitches before retireing
thats ok to me.
The metolius are way harder make them long again than the yates due to their buckle.

And the main downside:
The buckle is impossible to release with only a slight bit of tension.
I found that out on lead in a horizontal roof, between two placements.
DO NOT, NEVER EVER TRY THIS!!!!
It's next to impossible to get out of such a trap.
It's no trap at all with the yates (different buckle).

hope that helps
Martin

YES!

Look at any picture of someone climbing a wall in one of the assorted mags, and they'll all be using sewed daisies.

Personally, I don't see a real benefit since most folks seem to use them more as a leash than an adjustable sling to hang off of. Also, they are WAY too long to use instead of a fifi, at least if you actually like to have your waist level with the piece you've placed (and if you're don't, you're not getting the max reach out of every placement).

Russ Walling wrote:'Should I get adjustable daisies?': NO. I prefer the regular daisy style, super long.... Adj is just another thing to futz with. If you are strong enough to grab your aiders and walk up the steps, there is no need for winching yourself up on the adj daisy.

Thanks for the advice, guys.

I have to admit I'm generally 'old school' in my approach to most things in life. I checked out the adjustable daisies at MEC (Canada's answer to REI).

I saw the mechanism something that I might tangle myself up in - I felt with sewn daisies that the 'dangling' of the loops could be controlled but with adjustable daisies the 'dangling' of the sling after adjustment might get caught up on... stuff.

This is quite possibly my misunderstanding of how they are used. I also felt the buckle mechanism might be a nightmare should I encounter a hot sweaty day, a cold icy day, or a damp rainy day, or a bad hair day.

My initial instinct was that sewn daisies were cool with fifi and various other clipping methods.

Cheers, Graeme.

I learned to aid from Brian McCray. Adjustable daisy chains are soooo much faster than sew-ups. I will never, ever go back.

Fat Dad, my waist is typically well above my piece when i'm in my second and top steps. Not getting in really close to the piece has never seemed like a big disadvantage to me.

The learning curve is a lot shorter with adjustables, but regular daisies are more efficient if you are very, very good at using them. I prefer adjustables, but i'm not a speed climber and I rarely do more than 50 pitches of aid a year. Regular daisies are also stronger and less prone to damage from wear.

The yates buckle style make a lot more sense to me than the metolius - the metolius seem to just combine the drawbacks of traditional and adjustable daisies with neither one's benefits. Avoid winching yourself up with the adjustables both to save wear on the buckle(it will eventually wear out and start slipping) and to move faster.

The Yates adjustable daisy ROCKS!

I can't believe it too me as long as it did to buy one. I saw an imdediate increase in my speed on aid pitches when I made the switch.

I would recommend against the Metolius one since it is only rated to 300lbs and releasing the buckle under load sucks. The Yates one is more like 1500lbs and is easy to release under load.

I should note that I only use one daisy (no daisies attached to my aiders) and I use it just like a fifi. I also keep the fifi on my harness for the odd placement where it is helpful.

Russ, I was surprised you were against the adjustables. Have you used the Yates version for more than a pitch or two?

Cheers,
Brad

I've run the gambit in Daisy chain use.

First I used pockets.
Then adjustables.
Then different adjustables.
Now I'm back to the pockets and a FiFi.

The Standard pocket daisy is the most efficient. IF you are strong and efficient.
ADJ. work great for "2:1ing" your way up routes. But they will never be a faster system. The reason is simple; they require more movement for *almost* every placement. The almost comes into play when you don't cinch the ADJ. up.

If you want to be a better/faster aid climber, get stronger at free climbing. Then you won't need the Adjustables.

How many aiders are you using? 4? 3?

If the answer is either you should try 2. The reduction in bulk/weight/Charlie foxtrot, will speed you up like you wouldn't believe. The system for it is simple, and easy to find info on.

josh

I really love adjustable daisy chains and consider them to be the Better Way, primarily for the reason that you can pull yourself up the wall with a 2:1 mechanical advantage, less the friction through the buckle. Why climb a big wall when you can just pull yourself up it?

I've tried them all [I think] - Metolius, Yates and Fish. Here's the beta:

Metolius - no longer recommended by me. They use a D-ring configuration rather than a buckle so they cannot be loosened when under tension, which makes them the hardest to operate. I used to like them because over time, the D-rings never slip, so it was my mistaken notion that you did not need to replace them as often as the buckle kind [Yates and Fish] which will begin to slip as the nylon wears. So what ended up happening was I kept the bloody things too long to the point where they became abraded, and one of them broke on me. The problem was that there was a synergistic effect happening where the summation of my mistakes - there were a bunch - combined with the daisy breaking resulted in me falling, hitting a ledge, and fracturing my ankle. I'm lucky I can still walk let alone climb.

Metolius now makes these adjustable daisies even weaker, only rated for a few hundred pounds, and warn you that they are not a Safe Point of Attachment, and have to be used in combination with a regular daisy, which in my opinion renders them useless.

Yates - the best design at present, and what I now recommend. You don't need the built-in Screamer, just the regular. They use a burly Ancra buckle which holds up pretty well. I use the things more than most guys since I am a Big Wall Camper, and have to replace them every couple-three walls. John Yates says they will last about 70 pitches, which is probably true if all you are doing is leading, but I am up there camping and crawling around on the anchors and stuff, so I wear them out quicker. But what the heck, they're not expensive. With a buckle, you can release them under tension, which is a huge convenience and benefit when climbing.

Fish - also a pretty good design, with one significant but easily fixed design flaw - the bit at the end which you girth hitch into your harness [or donut as I do] is too long because the stitching to create the loop runs over too long of a doubled section. What this means is that you can't pull yourself up as high as you would like because the stitching can't pull through the buckle. It only leaves you hanging I'm guessing three or four inches or so lower than the Yates - maybe it's more - but it's annoying as hell. All Russ has to do is shorten the stitching to a reasonable length, and they'll be good to go.

What I like about Fish's adjustables is that you can also order a replacement hunk of webbing for cheaper than a new daisy, and just replace it when the nylon gets worn and the buckle starts to slip.

Are adjustable daisies the Better Way? I think so, but a lot of the pros prefer the regular kind, which are undoubtedly stronger. When using adjustables you have to be more careful not to blow it and take a daisy chain fall, because under potential factor 2 forces you could break it. So be more careful. And remember, the Better Way is whatever works best for you, and that could well be a regular daisy.

Cheers,
Pete

P.S. You might prefer to run the gamut, not gambit, unless you are playing chess or trying to outmaneuver your partner for the best bivi spot.

Josh,

Could you explain to the listening audience what "charlie foxtrot" is? CHuckle

I caught Hemmes with bare hands when his adjustable daisy snapped while short fixing. My other bro Ryan Jennings snapped one and decked on Lost in America.

And even the great anti-hero Brian McCray snapped one at work.

This could mean doomsday under the wrong conditions.

Work-positioning only, not for fall protection. Understandd the difference.

Yes. Plain and simple. Use them once and you'll never go back.

For easy aid I don't even bother using any type of daisy. I have one adjustable yates that I use to anchor to if needed. The yates are well made and damn solid. Fish are good too. I have both. If you buy the Fish adjustable buy a spare replacement sling at the same time.

If the aid gets harder I use traditional daisies and an adjustable fifi. I find it works pretty fast. I always use two pairs of aiders. I like the fish smart aiders as it lets you walk up the aiders naturally. There is no twisting, etc.

Hope this helps...

The thing about aid is it takes a while to figure out your systems and get them dialed so don't be discouraged if it takes you a long time to lead, clean and haul. It gets much much faster with practice and it lets you go to amazing places.

Post up any other questions you have.

IMHO, Adjustable aiders and daisies are SH!T (not to be confused with THE sh!t) for leading, though they seem to work nicely for jugging.

bought a set, tried the set, sold the set post haste!. No reason you can't do the same, but don't say you weren't warned.

brent armstrong wrote:Work-positioning only, not for fall protection. Understandd the difference.

This is well worth reiterating. I have a pair of shady-looking Petzl adjustable daisies which weigh nothing and offer just about as much assurance of stopping a fall. They are honest in that way.

As soon as I get off a piece that's worth anything, I clip out the daisy and clip in the rope. If I'm going to whip it's going to be onto the rope, which is made specifically to catch falls gently, rather than breaking a daisy (or my back, if I had a burlier daisy).

That said, when I get up to speed, I don't use the daisies for much other than preventing pieces from flying into the void if a placement pops. Yarding up on them (instead of chugging up the aiders) means that I am being a wuss and going slow, don't trust the piece, or both.

I rigged the Petzls so that I can flick them open to full extension with the back of my thumb, and I habitually do so as part of my unclipping routine. Overall I like them, but it may just be habit.