Toproping from the @ !%$! Anchors

OK, I'm new to climbing, but even I know better...

My fiance' & I were scoping out Red Rock Canyon Open Space for the first time yesterday & noticed several parties toproping directly from the anchors, rather than their own gear. I watched to see if they were simply lowering the last climber, & nope, they were happily climbing that way.

My first instinct was to scream "Hey, what the hell are you thinking???...", but figured that would be less than constructive.
I'm guessing each crag has its own, written or unwritten, code of ethics, but being a total newbie, I'm not sure about RRCOS. Surprisingly, The Garden of the Gods climbing rules don't address this issue.

So, for you non-newbies out there, what's the best way to approach this?

Will,
You're right, top-roping from anchors isn't helping the preservation of the anchor, but the greater impact comes from lowering the last climber off of the anchor. You wrote your statement as if you would have preferred that they were lowering. Many climbers have a misconception about top-roping through anchors, and deem it some horrible crime. When someone is top-roping, the rope is predominantly sliding through the anchors unweighted (or minimally weighted), and fairly slowly. Most of the time the climber is either resting, which means no friction, or they are climbing, which means the rope is weighted less than 100%. This prevents the buildup of heat, which means the friction is low. The much worse impact comes when someone is lowered off an anchor. At this point the rope is 100% weighted, and is probably passing through the anchors pretty quickly. This results in the maximum friction that can be achieved from this setup. If you're looking to protect the anchors (which is a great thing), continue to encourage climbers to top-rope on their own gear, but much more importantly, encourage climbers to rap off of anchors when they are finished.

Cody

thanks for explaining this cody, it clears up some things.

Top-roping with the rope directly through the anchors has become a real problem at Red Rock Canyon Open Space. I usually tell folks that I see doing it out there that it is not a good thing since it wears the anchors out faster. The main reason people, mostly novice climbers although some do it that should know better, do it seems to be out of sheer laziness. Oh my gawd I might have to climb back up to the anchor and take my draws off and thread it and it's going to take soooo much time and it's such a pain in the neck. As you can guess it's a pet peeve of mine!

you cant control if climbers will toprope through the anchors. even if you ask. The fact that it happens, and there are still worn anchors, it will continue to happen. what you CAN control is contribute some hardware to the anchor that is both replaceable and will not wear out. if it does, replace them. sit at the trailhead if you must and take a collection to afford $4.20 quicklinks. Besides, if they are lower-off anchors, it will groove eventually, anyway. its not a matter of IF they need replacing, but WHEN.

check out Ken's great

for his quick fixes at Table Mountain in golden for the same kind of problem.

let me guess, the next discussion will be lowering vs. rap cleaning?

It is fairly standard practice to top rope through one's own gear, and then thread an anchor and lower off when finished. Although this does wear on the anchor at least it is only one climber in the group, and only one lower-off. If every group that planned on top roping a climb adhered to this practice anchors everywhere would be in better shape.

While it should be noted that rappelling off of anchors is the best way to prevent wear. It simply is not always the safest of methods (think steep sport climbs).

The anchors Darren refers to that Ken Trout is now doing is no better, no worse than rapid links. Many of those anchors are already showing rust and groves, and they are only a few months old. If I had to pick I'd probably say they are probably worse because they promote climbing through the anchor and thus necessitate an even quicker replacement.

how bout stainless, Jason?
;)

I thought the hardware promoted a method of lowering & tramming if the route dictated this as a safer descent than rapping. Also, I thought these guys were trying to come up with a way to replace hardware without having to re-drill the stud. Basically, the way I read their thoughts had nothing to do with promoting TR'ing through the hardware.

However, the setup does facilite TRing through the hardware because that is what is done in the gym.

Mark Nelson wrote:However, the setup does facilite TRing through the hardware because that is what is done in the gym.

and the areas this issue is happening are at gym-type crags.
?

Yeah Darren I see that -- figure climbers with little equipment want to go out and get the same experience they do in the gym. They don't really think about the anchor rigging, it's fixed, solid, & redundant already; they don't need to buy more gear and/or they can't afford it; but they can climb 5.11-.13+.

This is the up & coming next-gen; do they get barred from climbing outside because they don't have the gear, or do you try and get the routes established so they can go and send?

Is it better to get the routes equipped to easily replace hardware without damaging the rock than it is to go after climbers for using the hardware?

Mark Nelson wrote:This is the up & coming next-gen; do they get barred from climbing outside because they don't have the gear, or do you try and get the routes established so they can go and send? Is it better to get the routes equipped to easily replace hardware without damaging the rock than it is to go after climbers for using the hardware?

thats the question.
i am with ya, mark.

Maybe this problem is more prevalent now with the new generation of climbers at certain "gym style" crags. Seems to me its always been an issue either way.

In my home state's sport climbing destination, Rumney, NH, "Team Tough" the local climbers group responsible for maintaining the routes have come up with a fairly good system. Most of the routes there are equipped with glue in bolts and stainless steel quick links at the top. A climber simply clips those at the top of a route and lowers off...no cleaning needed. The members of Team Tough replace those anchor quick links every so often when they start to show signs of wear.

Not sure how much those quick links cost but it has to be around the same price as a regular link that screws on and off?

Due to $ constraints and shipping time my buddy suggested we use some of the 100 or so old biners he has in a box. So we started using them with the fixe ring anchor minus the SS ring. It saves us about $6 per anchor and it puts the responsibility of maintenance on the community. We hope it forces people to replace them as we think the deeper the groove the more likely they will be to come up with a biner they can part with (self preservation). I have also had a great response from folks who have lots of old biners laying around. The biners do make it easier to top-rope but they are easily replaced when worn and everyone can pitch in. Might not work Well in areas that really get hammered by the TR crowd or places where ropes pick up alot of grit.

I was at RRCOS about a month ago. Top-rope city, which obviously means that this condition occurs often. Most the routes I was on had Fixe hangers and rings. To my amazement, I noticed almost no wear on the rings. Remarkable considering how the fine-grained sand there has to exacerbate the problem more so than other areas. It was just one trip and only a few routes, but that sold me on Fixe rings.

I really like the Fixe rings too and if I had an area with heavy use would probably use them. The ring shape seems to keep the wear from occurring in a single spot. The replacement issue will come up in the future but one could always use a biner then. We put up 100 new routes a year. That times the $6/anchor saved is a good chunk of change.

A picture's worth a thousand words,

JF

I hate to side track a good discussion, but it strikes me that everyone so far has missed the point. I climb at Red Rocks regularly and have climbed most of the routes in the park. There is NO route in the park that can be safely top roped off the anchors because none of the anchors are equalized. To top rope, you would have to set up an American Triangle system. Forget wear and tear: it's NOT SAFE to top rope off the anchors at that crag.

Will Bluster wrote:OK, I'm new to climbing, but even I know better... My fiance' & I were scoping out Red Rock Canyon Open Space for the first time yesterday & noticed several parties toproping directly from the anchors, rather than their own gear. I watched to see if they were simply lowering the last climber, & nope, they were happily climbing that way. My first instinct was to scream "Hey, what the hell are you thinking???...", but figured that would be less than constructive. I'm guessing each crag has its own, written or unwritten, code of ethics, but being a total newbie, I'm not sure about RRCOS. Surprisingly, The Garden of the Gods climbing rules don't address this issue. So, for you non-newbies out there, what's the best way to approach this?

Use old-style rap hangers- the ones that will chew your rope if you lower through them, but are fin for rapping on.
CLimbing will get super F'ing expensive for peopl who don't learn. They'll completely fuzz the sheath in 10 routes and then go buy biners and slings.

Eric Rhicard wrote:Due to $ constraints and shipping time my buddy suggested we use some of the 100 or so old biners he has in a box. So we started using them with the fixe ring anchor minus the SS ring. It saves us about $6 per anchor and it puts the responsibility of maintenance on the community. We hope it forces people to replace them as we think the deeper the groove the more likely they will be to come up with a biner they can part with (self preservation). I have also had a great response from folks who have lots of old biners laying around. The biners do make it easier to top-rope but they are easily replaced when worn and everyone can pitch in. Might not work Well in areas that really get hammered by the TR crowd or places where ropes pick up alot of grit.

If this gets done with chain, dont be shocked when the biner is worn, so someone pulls it off and goes through the chain directly...

What is the consensus opinion on using 3/8" Mallions (rapid links of good quality) like this instead of biners? $4 each, steel rather than aluminum, lock up well, and are serviceable after years with a simple tool like a vice-grips or wrench.

Using two separate/redundant 3/8" links of chain (2200 SWL) each quick-linked into a bolt is a good equalized system (unlike the Fixe Rings (American Triangle). Simply putting biners on the last links on each chain as mentioned earlier in the post is a good idea because it eliminates the potentially fatal un-tie/re-tie, threading step. This set-up is very prevalent at sport crags e.g., Rifle. Simply put a new biner on the last link when it gets grooved. The only negative is that the biners on occasion do get swiped. Most people have countless carabiners lying around that they could part with.