Free Serving of Narcissism in the April 2008 Issue of Rock & Ice!

I would say that the biggest problem with climbing these days is not narcissistic sporties, or even their influence in the mags. It is people hating, truly hating, and wishing harm to others for doing their thing.

"What a bunch of whiners! It sounds like you are threatened by climbing becoming (more) main stream than it currently is. Are you worried that you won't be cool because you will no longer be one of an 'extreme' few who face life and death on the edge?

Get over it. Climbing IS mainstream...unless you climbed in the early 80's or before, you ARE part of the mainstream that you're crying about!"

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actually dean, i think most folks here are commenting on how the 'metro-fication' of our shopping mall gay-ass society is befining to sublimate and reduce the culture of the sport.

i don't think there are too many here worried about being cool or extreme.

Peace and love brother Cpt.E
If that doesn't work for you, I will be in Vail on Sun.

Jason, this too will pass. I admit to wearing lycra but I din't have enough hair for a mullet. I like the mags for some of the info and photos and ignore the bs, like ads for stuff I would never use. We all gotta make a living. I just wish my abs looked like Ramon's.

Mike McHugh wrote:Try to fit in to the culture, then try to not fit in to the culture, then realize that you were looking for something much more personal and profound the whole time.

Very profound indeed.

There's a great story in the '08 BD rock catalogue (came in the mail yesterday) that really gets to the heart of climbing, fashion, and pop culture. It's about an unusual bouldering style that the author encountered somewhere on the border between wild Wyoming and South Dakota. It's not online yet, but if you get a chance, it's worth reading. It helps you remember why you climb. Or at least it should.

From a time when climbers weren't a bunch of posers...

Deaun Schovajsa wrote:Are you worried that you won't be cool because you will no longer be one of an 'extreme' few who face life and death on the edge?

I can't imagine Alpine ever being cool.

You did say extreme few, life and death, edge, and quite frankly, that doesn't describe sport climbing.

Phillip Morris wrote:From a time when climbers weren't a bunch of posers...

Maybe I missed the sarcasm, but those guys look like a bunch of fucking posers to me. Granted, they aren't posers, but they sure look it.

Bill Ballace wrote: Maybe I missed the sarcasm, but those guys look like a bunch of fucking posers to me. Granted, they aren't posers, but they sure look it.

Oh, they're posers alright. Definitely posers.

Bill Ballace wrote: Maybe I missed the sarcasm, but those guys look like a bunch of fucking posers to me. Granted, they aren't posers, but they sure look it.

Yup, just check thier resumes....those jocks just stole the clothes from some Camp 4 dirtbag and beached their camera in the meadow and posed for THE shot! Did Long, Bridwell and "the other guy" Westbay actually climb anything in the valley?

Logan Eckhardt wrote: I agree that if they are going to take pictures of sports such as climbing, they should make sure to at least get the basics right.

This, to me, is at heart of the issue. And, it is emblematic of the original post. Climbing, or least the media control of climbing (i.e. climbing magazine, ads in other outlets), has been taken over by a cadre of media specialists who know very little of climbing and, in all probability, are not climbers. Yet they are in control of ads targeted to climbers. Now, I am not sure about the rest of you but to me this is very insulting. Moreover it shows extreme hubris on their part. My question becomes: Who do they think they are targeting in these ads?

I guess they must have a targeted audience, otherwise I doubt they could continue their campaign. But, then, that is what is scary to me. I mean, who out there actually sees these adds and are not capable of noticing the often time lame portrayal of climbers? And, if new people to climbing see these ads and DO NOT notice the gross errors in the technical aspects of the sport (as demonstrated in the mock scenes), this calls into serious question their common sense and judgment, and ability to make critical decisions. These people are out there climbing and belaying, putting them selves and others at risk.

I think the key here is to, "not let the bastards get you down". The guys who write and edit those mags are just trying to make a living. Maybe they are exploiting the climbing culture in the process, but that doesn't mean you have to accept their definition of climbing and what it means to you personally. Just shrug it off. I've scene these two quotes below pop up from time to time on MP and to me they provide a much more succinct explanation of what climbing is then any magazine could ever hope to offer.

'The story of mountaineering is a story of faith and affirmation-that the high road is the good road; that there are still among us those who are willing to struggle and suffer greatly for wholly ideal ends; that security is not the be-all and end-all of living; that there are conquests to be won in the world other than over our fellow man. The climbing of the earth's heights in itself means little. That men want and try to climb them means everything. For it is the ultimate wisdom of the mountains that man is never so much a man as when he is striving for what is beyond his grasp, and that there is no battle worth the winning save that against his own ignorance and fear.'
- From "The Age of Mountaineering"

From Theodore Roosevelt:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man that points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

Aubrey K. Additon wrote:I think the key here is to, "not let the bastards get you down". The guys who write and edit those mags are just trying to make a living. Maybe they are exploiting the climbing culture in the process, but that doesn't mean you have to accept their definition of climbing and what it means to you personally. Just shrug it off.

Excuse me? No, what it means is that there is someone more qualified to do their job. Heck, hire a consultant, but at least get it right.

And, "accept their definition of climbing?" I must confess I do not understand this sentence. IMHO this statement is the very essence and embodiment of Generation Y culture.

Adam Stackhouse wrote: Yup, just check their resumes....those jocks just stole the clothes from some Camp 4 dirtbag and beached their camera in the meadow and posed for THE shot! Did Long, Bridwell and "the other guy" Westbay actually climb anything in the valley?

I know who they are brainstems. Try reading both sentences especially the part where I say "Granted, they aren't posers." My point was that in every generation of climbing there has been a style to go along with it. During this particular period it was the h-mo hippie look. later, the lycra years, and now prAna bouldering rats. These guys were as core as the PrAna wearing "bra" spewing 5.14/v15 climbing kids are today. The point is that people are core when they are at the forefront of their sport. Even if they do look like hippie-duschbag-posers.

Who really gives a shit about this? Let's just go climbing and stop worrying about other people denting our fragile egos and bastardizing "our sport". Yes, I need to take my own advice and get on the rock. Now.

Is there really a difference between these two groups:

1. People who think they are rad because they wear Prana, climb hard at the gym and participate in the sporto/bouldering scene. These folks read *gasp* Urban Climber.

2. People who think they are hardcore because they eschew bolts and enjoy sketchy runout trad. Rather than joining the local sport club they hang out with like-minded tRadsters and talk about how rad they still climb in Carhartts and flannel. This group reads Alpinist, because Alpinist hates sport climbing too.

Both groups are part of a climbing scene, you probably just think your scene is somehow superior. Get over it. Climbing is a popular sport. So is just about every other sport worth doing. Nobody is forcing you to read Rock and Ice.

What I meant by accept their definition is that through their advertising they are trying to project a certain image of what it is to be a climber and because their motivation for advertising (i.e. make $) is very different from what motivates most people to climb their projected image may not be accurate. How does this statement have anything to do with generation Y?

Hire a consultant? Are you going back to the idea that these advertisements do not show proper gear usage/technique, so they should hire a consultant to check their ads. IMHO anyone who looks to an advertisement for proper climbing technique is completely nuts. To hold advertisers to that type of standard does not make sense to me I think the onus is on the individual to make smart decisions.

I really only joined this thread because I wanted to toss those quotes out their as some food for thought about what motivates people to climb. I totally agree with Braxton. It's Friday the sun is out, the boss is gone, and I'm heading off to go climb.

Aubrey K. Additon wrote:What I meant by accept their definition is that through their advertising they are trying to project a certain image of what it is to be a climber and because their motivation for advertising (i.e. make $) is very different from what motivates most people to climb their projected image may not be accurate. How does this statement have anything to do with generation Y?

And, I suggest "who are you motivating if you cannot get the details right?" It simply shows ignorance. Your defensive posture suggests that you are familiar with the trade.

Aubrey K. Additon wrote: Hire a consultant? Are you going back to the idea that these advertisements do not show proper gear usage/technique, so they should hire a consultant to check their ads. IMHO anyone who looks to an advertisement for proper climbing technique is completely nuts.

Well, yes it is a bit too much to ask that people that get paid to do a job are expected to do it correctly. Gosh, GOD forbid that they should have to do a little research on something that they have no clue about. The Horror (thus, my issue with Gen Y).

I apologize for my previous post. I was reacting to what I perceived as a slam against advertising. A member of my family is trying to eek out a living as an outdoor photographer, and I see him hustling and busting his arse trying to sell his photos, and I took offense. I apologize. I agree with Aubry that people would be completely nuts to trust a photo to obtain information on how to climb, however, given that people rely on photos for all sorts of other things I guess it wouldn't be surprising!

At least my bro-in-law is taking photos of real athletes doing real live things, and not mocking up fake situations where the model hasn't a clue about what they are portraying.

I suspect that we can't expect all photographers or companies that are trying to sell their wares to portray things correctly and safely.

Well, they are just magazines anyway. Most of the ads seem to be for SUVs amyways. I miss the Brit rag 'Mountain' myself. Climbing is just like reality: every one has a different perception of it. Hell, I don't even know what my perception of climbing necessarily is. I'm sure it is different from Gen Y types, amongst others. So I say, don't worry, be happy!