How to attract a trad mentor

Heather - look for the kind of guy (or lady) who has that quiet confidence, not the person who thinks they know everything and wants everyone to know it, but someone who is comfortable in any situation. All the real trad masters I've met are unassuming people, friendly and easy to talk to, sometimes with a look in their eyes that betrays a few near fatalities; they've come through stronger for the experience and are just happy to be alive and have someone to come home to at the end of the day.

Usually, the type of mentor you seek will have no shortage of partners. Observe; the type of guy you're not looking for IS looking for you. The type of guy you ARE looking for is most likely found in a small group or with his partner, minding their own business, unless you're doing something truly dangerous thereby attracting their attention. A good place to run into a potential trad mentor is by making friends with your "neighbors" around the campfire. And of course their are plenty of female trad masters to be found as well.

Ken - I don't know what happened in the dark and distant past to make you and Tony such enemies, but do you really have to counter every time he posts? I understand from this and many a previous post that you can't stand anything even approaching a stereotype concerning men and women; nothing wrong with that. But does any of this really need to be a crusade? Just an observation.

Bill Olszewski wrote:Ken - I don't know what happened in the dark and distant past to make you and Tony such enemies, but do you really have to counter every time he posts? I understand from this and many a previous post that you can't stand anything even approaching a stereotype concerning men and women; nothing wrong with that. But does any of this really need to be a crusade? Just an observation.

There is no dark, distant past between Tony and me. I have never even met him in person, nor do I have a problem with him. He made a really patronizing comment, and I called him on it. Had that comment come from you, I would have called you on it. Don't read more into it then there actually is. BTW, calling this a crusade is a bit dramatic.

Shumin Wu wrote: To Tony, do you think if she did what you recommended, she'd be just as statistically unattractive to a trad mentor as the rest of us?

Nah, Sometimes I just climb with whoever is around/available last minute, and sometimes I prefer climbing with women and I'm happily married. Female and male company can be a little different even if the relationship is platonic. Maybe it's just me and my sexism? My behavior tends to be fairly 'male.'
Joseffa (not my wife) and I have climbed together for 15+ years, and it started out with me as a 'mentor.' Jo climbes backcountry, big wall, alpine, has flashed 5.12a, etc... Now I have a great partner who would be considered a 'journeyman' level climber in most circles.

Ken Cangi wrote: This is patronizing BS.

I'm not sure what is patronizing about giving advice that was solicited for... But it seems everything I say is a problem for you, and all your responses are to me. Oh well.

Tony Bubb wrote: I'm not sure what is patronizing about giving advice that was solicited for... But it seems everything I say is a problem for you, and all your responses are to me. Oh well.

Tony,

For a self-proclaimed intellectual with two degrees and expertise in just about every topic that crosses these pages, you can be quite clueless at times.

Tony Bubb wrote:My first reaction would be to say to tell the guys you are a lesbian,

Tony one of the best kids I have climbed and worked with is lesbian, we could even hoot at the same girls driving to the crag.

it's so amazing that with all the new methods of communication we have nowadays, we still SUCK at it!!! (not all of us of course...)

ken--i'd say it was a joke...not a patronizing comment...and it'd be good to follow that nice #1 guideline they got posted...and get over it!

Tony, you sound like a cool person to climb with...got you're message and i'd love to hang out with some cool chickas! i head up to boulder a lot to climb..got a few friends...send me some email addresses of those and i'll say hi when i'm goin be in town.

Bill--excellent advise...seems like the good mentors are really hard to find and that patience is absolutely necessary...will keep looking!

now back to the subject at hand: (and maybe a better way to ask the question, since i'm not looking for dating advise:)

What are some things that I should look for that are BAD signs and someone I should NOT choose as a trad mentor? Since I'm learning, I don't know all the tricks and it sure is fun to pick everyone's brain on the issue!

Heather

Try to learn most of it by yourself. Thats my best advise! It might be slower, but in the end you will be able to choose partners easier then because you will have the knowledge to evaluate them better!
Besides; out there on the lead its all about you so prepare as best as you can. Advanced Rockcraft by Royal Robbins covers all you need to start leading! Be safe and have fun!

Heather Haynes wrote:ken--i'd say it was a joke...not a patronizing comment...and it'd be good to follow that nice #1 guideline they got posted...and get over it!

I was over it the moment I said it, and from the history of Tony's comments, I'm betting that it wasn't a joke, not that it matters. Tony is entitled to his opinions, just as am I and everyone else, regardless of who likes it or not.

BTW, you folks need to stop crying breach of rule #1 every time someone expresses an opinion that you don't like. Platitudes don't make you a nicer person, nor does being politically correct. Such approaches just make you emotionally innocuous to people who have a hard time with uncomfortable topics.

I might be a little too straightforward for some people, but at least you will always know where you stand with me, and you will always get fairness and an honest answer from me. Moreover, when I'm wrong, I am the first to publicly admit it. I feel no need to waste people's time blowing smoke up their anal cavities. And for what it's worth, those are the traits that I would look for in a climbing mentor in whose hands I would have to trust my life in a difficult situation.

Take the advice given by Gloeckler, at least a little. Everyone else's advice, especially mine, should be suspect. Oh, and the advice about using the "climbing partner" section could work too. Really though, if I were you, I'd look into golf. . . It's just a much better lifestyle.
No need to thank me.

cameron wrote: Really though, if I were you, I'd look into golf. . . It's just a much better lifestyle. No need to thank me.

but yall are so much more entertaining! :) no thanks here!

Ken Cangi wrote: I was over it the moment I said it......I might be a little too straightforward for some people, but at least you will always know where you stand with me, and you will always get fairness and an honest answer from me. Moreover, when I'm wrong, I am the first to publicly admit it. I feel no need to waste people's time blowing smoke up their anal cavities. And for what it's worth, those are the traits that I would look for in a climbing mentor in whose hands I would have to trust my life in a difficult situation.

cool
way cool
i'm a bit too much like that too..
and yeah, those are the best to climb with.

interesting thing is, that after all is said and done, the only real advise i'm taking away from all of this is what I already knew:

LOOK EM IN THE EYE and SEE for yourself who they are.
Trust takes time to develop. you can't rush it.

but at least you all get to sound smart with your expertise!
and it's fun getting to know everyone on this site.
good stuff

It's actually simple

1. Said person makes the time to go climb.
2. They are interested in all aspects of climbing.
3. They lead.
4. They are good to hang out with.

Pretty simple. And I might add, that in the end their sex doesn't matter much in the equation. I have some great male and female partners and it sure as hell is nice to have both.

Tim Stich wrote:Pretty simple. And I might add, that in the end their sex doesn't matter much in the equation. I have some great male and female partners and it sure as hell is nice to have both.

Well said, Tim.

cameron wrote: Here are the Top 10 (in reverse order out of pure sloth). 1. They always pack along their hanging bivy, and want to "make it a two-day send". . . even on bouldering problems! 2. They always want to lend a "helping hand" (or two) for that first move 3. They prefer to climb naked, and they always remind you 4. They urinate right in front of you, with no attempts to conceal 5. When exchanging gear they clip it to your belay loop (yah, the front one) 6. During conversations they stare at your crotch 7. They offer to help you put on, and take off, your harness. 8. They climb with a gag-ball strapped to their face 9. They become psychotic when you look at, or talk to other climbers 10. And the Number one sign to look for someone else as your trad mentor. . . they wear spandex!

That was the single most idiotic post that I have ever read. It didn't even help the OP with her pr0bs.

Heather,

The best advice I could give would be don't look anywhere near the morans that spend their time finger plucking keyboards on this site.
Get out to the crags and gyms to meet the people in your community personally. the right person will come along. Then you can get a look at their true skill with out having to judge off of pics and tick lists. Most of which are all BS including mine.
I only climb off the couch and up the stairs.

Somehow when I say "lesbian," men hear something akin to "two for one!" Even if you aren't scuzy, I'm sure that you have had enough man time to know that some your buddies are scuzy. Men, especially when they are in a perceived position of power (such as a "trad mentor") tend to expect things or are at least willing to push that to see what they can get. I have for sure been in situations where I was going climbing for the weekend and my partner was going for a weekend frolic in the woods, you know what I mean. It only took a couple of uncomfortable trips before you start getting choosy.

I typically climb with other women, sometimes it is difficult to find experienced female partners, but they are out there and most of us are super nice and would love to help another woman gain skills and experience. Plus you avoid any weird tension. If forced by circumstance, look for super harmless types like Tony (married and think that means something).

In my experience, a positive attitude, willingness to bake cookies or buy beer, lug gear, and bring a thermos of coffee goes a long way toward making you an attractive partner to those that have something great to teach you and just want to climb.

Sexual politics aside, you need to be looking for someone who climbs safely. Typically this isn't a 20-something male who has something to prove to the world. Find someone that practices safe habits all the time. If you ask them a question on why they do something the way they do, they have a clear, logical answer. Even before I had many skills, I still go the feeling who was safe and who wasn't.

SMH wrote:Somehow when I say "lesbian," men hear something akin to "two for one!" Even if you aren't scuzy, I'm sure that you have had enough man time to know that some your buddies are scuzy. Men, especially when they are in a perceived position of power (such as a "trad mentor") tend to expect things or are at least willing to push that to see what they can get. I have for sure been in situations where I was going climbing for the weekend and my partner was going for a weekend frolic in the woods, you know what I mean.

I hate hearing stuff like this. I like to think that we have evolved beyond the point of being life-support systems for our penises, but then I hear stories like this.

One of the reasons that I disdain stereotypes is because I know that this type of behavior isn't endemic to a specific type of male, and age has little to do with it. Part of the problem is that people neglect to communicate their boundaries up front. For instance, knowing that there is the possibility that the invitation to a female/male outing might be misconstrued by either party, the solution would be to set the boundaries up front. That way there is no confusion about what is what.

Proper communication can help to avoid uncomfortable situations before they ever become a problem.

Tony Bubb wrote:My first reaction would be to say to tell the guys you are a lesbian, but that would just make it worse. Instead, talk a lot about your boyfriend if yoiu have one, and make sure to climb with guys who are totally into thier wife or girlfriend. That keeps the confusion about what kind of partner you are looking for to a minimum. Most boys can handle straight talk- most like to know where they stand, so tell them.

Ken Cangi wrote: This is patronizing BS.

Ken Cangi wrote: Part of the problem is that people neglect to communicate their boundaries up front. For instance, knowing that there is the possibility that the invitation to a female/male outing might be misconstrued by either party, the solution would be to set the boundaries up front. That way there is no confusion about what is what. Proper communication can help to avoid uncomfortable situations before they ever become a problem.

Ken, that sounds an awful lot like my 'patronizing BS.'
Is it more valid now that a gal-pal of mine said it? And if so, does make you sexist?
Or ready to admit to humping my leg specifically about gender issues?

Tony Bubb wrote:My first reaction would be to say to tell the guys you are a lesbian, but that would just make it worse. Instead, talk a lot about your boyfriend if yoiu have one, and make sure to climb with guys who are totally into thier wife or girlfriend. That keeps the confusion about what kind of partner you are looking for to a minimum. Most boys can handle straight talk- most like to know where they stand, so tell them. Second of all, I'm not sure that asking them a lot will solve any issues- most know how to say what you want to hear, so be watchful for actions, which speak louder than words, and ask FOF's (freinds of friends) about potential partners. One other thing that might work is looking for 'partner wanted on March XX' type of posts and spending days climbing with people who seem to be experineced. They are looking to get out and are probably willing to trade knowledge for a safe belay. And if you hit it off as pals, who knows?

Like I said: Clueless. Her post was nothing like yours. She did stereotype, but not in the patronizing way that you did. For example:

Tony Bubb wrote:My first reaction would be to say to tell the guys you are a lesbian, but that would just make it worse. Instead, talk a lot about your boyfriend if yoiu have one, and make sure to climb with guys who are totally into thier wife or girlfriend. That keeps the confusion about what kind of partner you are looking for to a minimum.

This is patronizing and insulting to the guy's intelligence. The proper thing to do is to set the boundaries before the trip, and make it clear that the interest is in climbing - not sex. If the recipient of that request doesn't acknowledge that he or she is okay with that then you will have determined the problem ahead of time.

Tony Bubb wrote:Second of all, I'm not sure that asking them a lot will solve any issues- most know how to say what you want to hear

This is patronizing bullshit, and it insinuates that guys are manipulative letches. Are you trying to tell us something about yourself, because you definitely aren't speaking for me or many of my male friends.

Even though that last bit is not what you quoted as BS at first, I'll address it.
You had to go to a different paragraph that had nothing to do with men to get that quote, which I delineated as a "second point" in answer to her question "what sort of questions should I ask?"
Almost every adult Ken, knows how to say what you want to hear. The point is that anyone who wants to be in charge will paint themselves out to be an expert.

One could extrapolate that and say that good people don't sound creepy and the creepiest people know how to not sound creepy too.

Kinda like when people that can never admit that they are wrong say things like:

Ken Cangi wrote: Moreover, when I'm wrong, I am the first to publicly admit it.

May I please have a public apology for the way you are publically misinterpreting, misrepresenting, and manipulating what I said?