Risky?

As climbers I feel we are very cautious and aware of the risk's we face. We do what we can to eliminate them.

So when you see things on TV like heli skiing, dirt bike tricks...who is riskier us or them? For example: kayaking down those insane rapids...lots of things you cant protect yourself from by placing gear or slinging something.

IMO it is them. Whats your opinion?

I have often had this conversation, and I guess I slice it this way.

There is a difference between something being risky and being reckless.

Climbing isn't implicitly reckless (despite the X/TREME ! portrayal on TV). You could be climbing 5.12 without a rope and it might not be reckless. It depends on your skill level. You could be climbing 5.5 be an experienced mountaineer have a brainfart and fall 1500 feet, or rappel off the ends of your rope.

So, I think it is risky, but the risks seem to me much more managageable (as you noted) than pouring down the river with thousands of gallons of water .. . but, I don't boat or ride dirt bikes, so it seems reckless to me. Maybe its more controlled than it seems.

Bryan K. wrote:A friend of mine once said. "Climbing is about as dangerous as tennis". At the time, I kind of felt this could be true, but now I'm hurt so I'm less sure. It's definitely less dangerous than the sports you have listed. That is until you head to the mountains.

Never judge the danger of an activity by its best case scenario. Alway jugdge it by its worst. Get in the way of a speeding tennis ball, and you might go home with an aweful welt. Screw up while climbing, and you might never make it home.

There was a study a while back, and in terms of death per user days, whitewater kayaking and climbing were equally dangerous. Curiously, taxi cab driving was 3x more dangerous than either!

I'm both a whitewater kayaking and climber, and my observation is different.

You can separate risk and difficulty in climbing (if you choose), but in whitewater kayaking, risk and difficulty are tightly intertwined.

I also feel risk is more difficult to manage in kayaking than climbing. One can sport climb on a super clean crag (no rockfall), and manage virtually all the risk in that type of climbing. Water is much more unpredictable medium, and despite the best planning and preparation - events can happen that are out of your control.

Personally I feel whitewater kayaking is more like alpine climbing in this regard. Shit happens in the mountains, and shit happens on the river. Shit rarely happens at a "sport crag" that wasn't the direct result of someone screwing up and failing to manage risk.

Climbing = choose your level of DIFFICULTY, choose your level of RISK
Kayaking = choose your level of DIFFICULTY and accept a required amount of RISK

My 2 cents.

"Ernest Hemmingway" wrote:There are only 3 real sports: bull-fighting, car racing and mountain climbing. All the others are mere games.

There are 2 kinds of sport/activities. Those that might kill you if enough mistakes/bad choices are made (climbing, BASE jumping, bull riding, kayaking); and those that won't (golf, raquetball, bowling).

Of those that can can kill you, you could say there is a scale of risk. Sport Climbing is pretty low on that scale; but keep in mind that we almost lost Lynn Hill on a sport route, and have lost others. Then you march up the scale with riskier activities, including making choices that enhance the risk that you are facing.

What is insidious is the hidden dangers of complacency - i.e. the Lynn Hill near miss. The more time you spend out there, IMO, the greater this invisible risk develops. I've had to perform some rapid corrections due to the "routine" allowing the opportunity for brain farts.

Ah, but golf could kill you--just think if another Jerry Ford
type player was out, shanked a shot close by, and the
ball hit your temple. Kapooie!

The most dangerous part of any trip to the crags or road trip for me is the roundabout 100 yards from home. People just don't indicate their intentions in this country!

Andy Laakmann wrote:There was a study a while back, and in terms of death per user days, whitewater kayaking and climbing were equally dangerous. Curiously, taxi cab driving was 3x more dangerous than either! I'm both a whitewater kayaking and climber...

I hope this web stuff pans out for you Andy, it would be terrible if you had to take up driving a taxi too!

When I think of what is risky, I would say bass fishing; but more probable is riding in a rickshaw after an Avy game.

All sports excert a certain pressure to perform. Some sports excert more pressure than others. When the possibility of death or serious injury enter the equation the name of the game changes too. Many people can do some incredible feats, but would they be able to perform under the pressure of possibly getting killed. Say if you didn't get a strike in a bowling tournament, the consequence could be death. Probably you would have a lot less bowlers and it would be taken more serious. I respect people that can do amazing things but I respect the ones more were they have everything to lose. The ultimate...their life.

Ken Cangi wrote: Never judge the danger of an activity by its best case scenario. Alway jugdge it by its worst. Get in the way of a speeding tennis ball, and you might go home with an aweful welt. Screw up while climbing, and you might never make it home.

Oh yeah?
http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=15846
"The freakiest sports fatality occurred on the tennis court. At the Junior Boys' Final of the 1983 U.S. Open, linesman Richard Wertheim was hit in the groin by a serve from eventual champion Stefan Edberg. Wertheim toppled backward, hitting his head on the court. He died in the hospital five days later of a subdural hematoma."

I thought the drive to the Ouray Ice Fest in whiteout conditions was way more dangerous than all the ice that crashed around me over the weekend. As sports go, BASE jumping(obviously), Bull Riding, kayaking and Mtn. Biking seem to me to be the easiest way to get hurt. No matter how much you prepare and train, there are more unavoidable variables with these sports than most others. I believe that Kayaking (which I have never done) scares me the most. My one cent anyways.

seems like we all pretty much agree that climbing is the least risky of "extreme sports".

That was a good point, driving is much more dangerous endeavor. I cant tell you how many times I have been cut off or almost hit. Hemmingway knew his stuff. did he climb?

Hank Caylor wrote:I thought the drive to the Ouray Ice Fest in whiteout conditions was way more dangerous than all the ice that crashed around me over the weekend. As sports go, BASE jumping(obviously), Bull Riding, kayaking and Mtn. Biking seem to me to be the easiest way to get hurt. No matter how much you prepare and train, there are more unavoidable variables with these sports than most others. I believe that Kayaking (which I have never done) scares me the most. My one cent anyways.

Wow Hank. I took a look at your pictures and it appears that you climb, BASE jump. cow ride, and have sexual relations with women that have 3 butt cheeks. You are truly extreme.

Spiro wrote:seems like we all pretty much agree that climbing is the least risky of "extreme sports". That was a good point, driving is much more dangerous endeavor. I cant tell you how many times I have been cut off or almost hit. Hemmingway knew his stuff. did he climb?

Climbing can be made the least risky, notably by sport climbing. But it amps up the risk scale as you venture into trad, ice, mixed, and mountaineering. Then I would put free-soloing at the very top of the risk scale for all sports. Well, catching bullets with your teeth is a little riskier, but we stopped doing that years ago. Aaah, those were the days...

bbrock wrote: Wow Hank. I took a look at your pictures and it appears that you climb, BASE jump. cow ride, and have sexual relations with women that have 3 butt cheeks. You are truly extreme.

Since it was a cow and not a bull, and being contained by another climber at that, then it doesn't count. Since I never had anything but fanatasies about the three butted girl that doesn't count as sexual relations. That counts me out as being extreme......sighs. I do agree that sportclimbing is one of the most manageable of the risky sports, in terms of controlable safety measures that can be taken that is. I just finished reading Mark Twights "Confessions of a Serial Climber" and also agree that the ante gets upped very high when you do that type of climbing. It seems that most of the incident reports of climbing injuries and deaths are due to avoidable mistakes. Not putting a knot in the end of the rope when belaying or rappelling, not having the proper experience in belaying and placing good gear and generally not being prepared for the situation you decided to put yourself into. Quitting drinking is still the most extreme thing I've personally ever done. I would think having a kid or kids would change ALOT of what I'm willing to risk. Cool topic, keep it coming people.

Back when seat belts were optional, I drove ambulance for a year in Denver. Based on my experience, I'd have to say driving a car on the highway is way more dangerous than climbing and maybe even soloing. Granted modern engineering, air bags and the like have mitigated this somewhat. Still I'd guess the mortality rate of automobile drivers far exceeds climbers.

John McNamee wrote:The most dangerous part of any trip to the crags or road trip for me is the roundabout 100 yards from home. People just don't indicate their intentions in this country!

Amen to that! People in this country do NOT know how to drive in roundabouts. Bunch of amateurs.

You know I had the same problem in roundabouts when I was just in Australia & New Zealand. It seemed like everyone was going the wrong direction!

They say that if all the deaths associated with Drunk Driving went away it would equate to the same amount of people per year as cancer claims. With that said I would be hard pressed to believe that all action sports combined were responsible for anywhere near that even on a percentage basis.