Don't crowd me at the crag...

I think I'm gonna go ahead with my t-shirts, I'll rake in millions

Christian and Jimbo have it right. The situation originally described involved poeple just dropping their gear down and climbing without having the social sense to ask if it was OK and whatnot. This behavior is rude.

Asking is not rude. If someone asked I would say "Sure," and if I didn't really want them next to me I would move myslef. No big deal. However, this wasn't the gist of the original post.

-Cublicletrolljockey

ropeless420 wrote:the hell with this topic, suck it up or give up climbing. there are tons of climbers out there and to get a way from all of them you would have to climb in your butt hole.just enjoy being out in nature.have fun and screw everybody else.

There you go, now you're talkin like a splatte rat!

I know, go f myself.

Ron L Long wrote:What exactly would be the definition of a cubicle jockey? Could it be some one who has posted to this thread (alone) almost 3 dozen times so far? Just wondering…….

Ron, good stuff. Some people just can't let shit go, it is a sickness.

Mark, the T-shirt idea is tits. you should also make them in muscle tees.

Christian wrote:

Ken, Jim is definitely not a cubicle jockey..I'll leave it at that for that argument.

The real problem with this thread is that people are getting all worked up and then (almost deliberately?) talking past each other.

IMO, the OP is talking about a situation where some people just plopped their rope bag pretty much right on top of him without saying anything and started climbing..Then he qualified it by saying the crag wasn't that crowded in general at that time ( i.e.. it wasn't, for example, Williamson Rock outside LA on a Saturday where 50 people used to crowd around 10 routes)..

Then you're describing a situation where some guy did exactly the same thing but showed common courtesy (like Jim said) by saying "Hey bro, mind if I get on this line?"

That being said, I probably wouldn't choose to complain about it on the Internet.

And yeah, hopefully MP doesn't turn into a RC.com style flamefest all the time..

The problem with this thread is that it exists at all. Any climber who goes to Shelf Road, or any other popular sport crag, and expects other parties not to climb adjoining routes, because of his or her antisocial need for privacy and exclusivity in a public place, is not operating in real time – to put it kindly.

And regarding my real-life example, whether or not the guy next to me had asked first would not have changed my answer, nor my attitude. It was perfectly normal for him expect the uncontested right to climb the adjoining route, or any other route on the cliff, and it would have been self-centered of me to expect otherwise. It's not like these women pushed Big Time's belayer aside, clipped into his draws, and tried to climb through him. Let's get real here.

Do you get pissed off when there are a dozen of you huddled in the lineup because it is a perfect thirty-foot day? First one in the pit is the winner, and when he rolls back into the lineup with a big grin on his face, everyone gives him props for a great ride, unless you're surfing in L.A.. Think about it, Christian.

And you’re right about not complaining about it on the Internet. It’s weak, and anyone who goes there is begging for a flambé. I, too, hope that MP doesn’t become another RC.Com, but as long as people choose to spray hard under anonymous cover, there will inevitably be a barbeque every once in awhile. C'est la vie.

Ron L Long wrote:What exactly would be the definition of a cubicle jockey? Could it be some one who has posted to this thread (alone) almost 3 dozen times so far? Just wondering...

Actually, I'm in my nice, spacious editing bay, in my own home, on my own dime, and I actually get outdoors in between posts. As for the other part of your comment, I am a doer, not a lurker. These are discussion boards, and if someone addresses me, I will engage them, and always as Ken Cangi rather than some invertebrate who throws stones under the cover of a ridiculous alias. Most of my posts in this thread, however, have been for the purpose of troll baiting, The pond seems to be well stocked, so why not?

Ron L Long wrote:By the way, you can count me in with the people who think it is rude to crowd people for no reason.

Maybe they had a very good reason, like: The route that they went there to do happened to be next to BT's. That is about as good a reason as any of us needs when choosing a route that no one is on. It's not uncommon for the most popular routes to be clustered together, because of the stone's similar natural features on a particular formation. The Gym, at Shelf Road, is a perfect example of that. The Example and Gym Arete - at their respective grades - are two of the most popular routes at that wall, and it is not uncommon for people to be on them at the same time, regardless of what else is available. I haven't been down there in awhile, so things might have changed. I've been told that there has been a lot of new-route development in the area.

I think the test for knowing if someone is doing something that is universally inconsiderate is how comfortable you would feel with bringing it to their attention. In other words, would you feel comfortable telling a stranger not to climb the unoccupied route next to you, because you wanted privacy? If your answer is yes, then, by all means, tell them how you feel, but don't be surprised if they look at you like you have a penis growing out of your forehead.

Ken Cangi wrote: Depends on the woman, Bill.

No truer words have ever been posted on this site.

Wow, Ken, I leave my 5x5 cubicle long enough to go do a few new routes (2 of over 150 in the last year alone. Not an easy task when I spend all my time in my cubicle "trolling") and I come back to read your vehement diatribe.

I guess I really hit nerve. Though it's a very common response for one who knows he's in the wrong to lash out at his accusers.

The full name, by the way, Ken, is Jim Scott. Though how using ones real name on a website increases ones "manhood" I don't quite understand. However, if you actually had "any balls" you could have emailed me directly from this web site, as many people have done looking for local climbing beta.

By the way, Narcissism: excessive interest in ones own; appearance, comfort, importance, abilities etc.

I've just re-read all your posts about this issue, and I think that describes you quite accurately.

Let me, again, reiterate my point, I have no problem with people climbing next to me. (I do new routes all year long just so we, the climbing community at large, can have fun new climbs to throw ourselves at. I don't do new routes so I can hoard them for my own private climbing area, Ken.) I do have a problem with people who obviously are so self absorbed that it doesn't even enter their mind that they could, just maybe, out of common courtesy, amble along and do one of the other multitude of different climbs close by. Then come back when the climb isn't so crowded. It's not antisocial to expect this modicum of courtesy from others, but the fact that you can't seem to grasp this concept is at best narcissistic and at worst sociopathic.

From reading the other posts, it also appears, I am not alone in my observations or conclusions about your personality traits.

Ken, if you ever come to Tucson and we run into each other at a crowded crag, just ask if it's OK to do the climb right next to me, that's all, just ask, and I'll gladly stack your rope for you, and cheer you on as you climb. It's really that simple.

Jimbo,
Since you are from Tucson, do you know a short, muscular, funny, old(mature), guy named Joe (Chiefman?). If so, say "Hi" to him from Greg Hand & Dave Mungo.

Jimbo wrote:Wow, Ken, I leave my 5x5 cubicle long enough to go do a few new routes (2 of over 150 in the last year alone. Not an easy task when I spend all my time in my cubicle "trolling") and I come back to read your vehement diatribe. I guess I really hit nerve. Though it's a very common response for one who knows he's in the wrong to lash out at his accusers. The full name, by the way, Ken, is Jim Scott. Though how using ones real name on a website increases ones "manhood" I don't quite understand. However, if you actually had "any balls" you could have emailed me directly from this web site, as many people have done looking for local climbing beta. By the way, Narcissism: excessive interest in ones own; appearance, comfort, importance, abilities etc. I've just re-read all your posts about this issue, and I think that describes you quite accurately. Let me, again, reiterate my point, I have no problem with people climbing next to me. (I do new routes all year long just so we, the climbing community at large, can have fun new climbs to throw ourselves at. I don't do new routes so I can hoard them for my own private climbing area, Ken.) I do have a problem with people who obviously are so self absorbed that it doesn't even enter their mind that they could, just maybe, out of common courtesy, amble along and do one of the other multitude of different climbs close by. Then come back when the climb isn't so crowded. It's not antisocial to expect this modicum of courtesy from others, but the fact that you can't seem to grasp this concept is at best narcissistic and at worst sociopathic. From reading the other posts, it also appears, I am not alone in my observations or conclusions about your personality traits. Ken, if you ever come to Tucson and we run into each other at a crowded crag, just ask if it's OK to do the climb right next to me, that's all, just ask, and I'll gladly stack your rope for you, and cheer you on as you climb. It's really that simple.

Jim Scott,

If what you get from my posts about not feeling entitled to covet public cliffs is that I am narcissistic or sociopathic, then you are an imbecile, and you need more than a dictionary. The other possibility is that your pride/ego is so inflated that you won't allow yourself to admit that what I am saying has little to do with me and everything to do with the concept of people learning to share public resources. Either way, I'm not impressed.

Frankly, Jim, I'm in no hurry to run into you, because you sound like a condescending jerk. That having been said, if you ever do show up at a route right next to the one that I am on, feel free to tie in without asking my permission, because you have just as must right to be there as do I, regardless of whether I like you or not. And if by chance you turn out to act like a civilized, decent guy, in person, then I will chalk off your insulting Internet persona as just that.

Peace

Ken,

What are you editing? Whats up with the film?

Ken,

A: I rest my case

B: I give up

Jimbo wrote:Ken,I give up

Excellent choice.

Greg Hand wrote:Jimbo, Since you are from Tucson, do you know a short, muscular, funny, old(mature), guy named Joe (Chiefman?). If so, say "Hi" to him from Greg Hand & Dave Mungo.

Well...he's short and old...but "mature" ?

Joe reads this forum once in a while when his meds allow him to operate a computer. And hi Dave, we met in Tucson a few years back thru Joe.

John Baker

Wow. You guys are too much. I go on a road trip for a week and come back to a gong-show. I'm going to resurrect this nonetheless though. IMO, the bottom line is this:

No one knows the exact circumstances you encountered on that fateful day at Shelf Road (although everyone appears to have a good idea). If you feel that you were wronged (this is directed at the OP, WETF it was) then be assertive. Tell the party climbing next you how you felt, then and there.

If you had told them, they might have said something like:

"We're sorry to crowd you, but this is a big project of mine; I'm not local and I don't know when I'll be able to get back to it." Or maybe they would have said, "Fuck you, I don't give a shit about your personal space." Unless you said something to them, you'll never know.

Don't come on MP.com and bitch about it. No one is going to change their cragging behavior because of some anonymous, bitchy post.

Some people drive slow in the left hand lane and no number of middle-fingers and dirty looks are going to change that. Suck it up; that's life.

--Marc

word up marc

Marc Horan wrote, "Some people drive slow in the left hand lane and no number of middle-fingers and dirty looks are going to change that. Suck it up; that's life."

However, people shouldn't drive slow in the left lane. If this were a driving forum, I may have started a discussion about whether driving slow in the left lane is rude. (I feel that it is.) Members of that driving forum, who didn't know driving slow in the left hand lane annoyed others, might change their ways. This is a climbing forum...
My OP was not intended to be a "middle-finger" or "dirty look" to those who climb next to me. Just a heads up that in certain situations it might annoy some other climbers.

For the worst thread ever, it has gotten a lot of
attention. And may result in fisticuffs between some of
the members...The fighting part was not my intention. I AM NOT A
TROLL. I am a fellow climber who had a thought to share. Is this a
crime? Did it relegate me to endure this harsh reaction? At what point was I bitching? I attempted to share a thought with what I perceived as a "community". Is this how fellow climbers get treated on MP.com?

I have tried repeatedly to get my point across. That I don't feel as
though I own the crag, that I understand people will climb next to
others at times, that this is not a huge issue. But, obviously it is a gray area. There are climbers on both sides. This issue has been raised before, and I'm sure it will appear again. As the climbing community grows it will become more important to have "rules of conduct". (i.e. no chipping, don't top rope through fixed gear, no throwing pumpkins from the top of the cliff...). MP.com seems like a good place to start these discussions and hopefully receive thoughtful responses. Internet bullies suck! Thanks to those who have risen up.

Big Time wrote:Marc Horan wrote, "Some people drive slow in the left hand lane and no number of middle-fingers and dirty looks are going to change that. Suck it up; that's life." However, people shouldn't drive slow in the left lane. If this were a driving forum, I may have started a discussion about whether driving slow in the left lane is rude. (I feel that it is.) Members of that driving forum, who didn't know driving slow in the left hand lane annoyed others, might change their ways."

The driving remark was an analogy. An appropriate one IMO.

Big Time wrote:This is a climbing forum... My OP was not intended to be a "middle-finger" or "dirty look" to those who climb next to me. Just a heads up that in certain situations it might annoy some other climbers.

While 'middle-finger' might be more than I intended, I would definitely call your OP a 'dirty look.'

Big Time wrote:For the worst thread ever, it has gotten a lot of attention. And may result in fisticuffs between some of the members...The fighting part was not my intention. I AM NOT A TROLL. I am a fellow climber who had a thought to share.

I shared my thoughts about your thought. IMO, your 'thought' was inane enough that people were justified believing it was a troll, given the fact that it came form an anonymous source (a trolls MO).

Big Time wrote:Is this a crime? Did it relegate me to endure this harsh reaction? At what point was I bitching? I attempted to share a thought with what I perceived as a "community". Is this how fellow climbers get treated on MP.com?,

Again, when you post anonymously, people don't take you nearly as seriously. MP.com users want to (rightfully) know something about the person they're responding to. Even if it's only that person's name and general location. If you feel you had a legitimate complaint/thought/whatever you should be able to stand by it and not hide behind the anonymity the Internet can provide.

Also, for the record I, for one, think your OP did sound 'bitchy'.

Big Time wrote:I have tried repeatedly to get my point across. That I don't feel as though I own the crag, that I understand people will climb next to others at times, that this is not a huge issue.

You got your point across. Some/many people just disagreed with you.

Big Time wrote:As the climbing community grows it will become more important to have "rules of conduct". (i.e. no chipping, don't top rope through fixed gear, no throwing pumpkins from the top of the cliff...).

Climbing etiquette will always morph. Just as important, climbing etiquette varies tremendously from area to area.

Big Time wrote:Internet bullies suck! Thanks to those who have risen up.

I read "thanks to those who agreed with me."

Big Time wrote:I would like the climbing community to consider being more respectful of other climbers desire for space.

Did you tell the 'offending party' this?

Or did you hope 1) They are MP.com users 2) They use the forums 3) They logged on that night 4) They realized that the anonymous post was directed at them?

Bottom Line:
Climbers are not going to change their behavior at the crags because of a single, anonymous, bitchy post!

--Marc

little did Big Time know that his post which seemed so innocent and heartfelt at the time would end up leaving 30 people who have never met in real life wanting to kill each other in slow painful ways.

You guys make the special ed kids look normal...

(No offense to the mentally handicap, just to retards fighting on the net)