Dry Tooling at the sport park

Environmentally responsible at the Sport Park? A bit of an oxymoron, no?.
Look, if you are afraid of a few pits or scratches destroying the aesthetics of a highly over-used, chalk-smeared cluster of bolts on 30' of igneous. . . .

If this is an actual issue, and some are afraid to offend the anti-eco-warrior crowd, then buy some plastic blades and use them instead of the hardened steel - yes, they're available, I've used them in the past - contact your manufacturer.

Say what you want, but there sure-in-hell ain't no environmental justification here. Or is there?
Enlighten me.

cameron wrote:buy some plastic blades and use them instead of the hardened steel

IMO, tools aren't the real issue. You'd need to address crampons, which I believe are the more significant contributor of damage.

Go look at Vail, and you will better understand the concerns of even the seasoned ice/mixed climbers.

I agree with Avery. Most marks that I've seen on the rock are from crampon points sliding across the rock. Picks may gorge out thin cracks but usually they don't skid across the rock. Not all companies make plastic blades. In fact I think only Grivel make those. Charlet, BD, Trango, DMM etc have yet to offer alternatives to metal.

I don't think that the concern of where to drytool has so much to do with concern that the aesthetics of the Sport Park will be further diminished by a few random scratches created by metal skid marks. I think the concern is that if climbers do it here will they be able to hold themselves back from going to other crags in this area (Cob Rock, Castle Rock etc) where to drytool rock routes would be environmentally irresponsible. In my experience it seems that many climbers need guidelines on how to behave otherwise it becomes a free-for-all.
I still think it's better to travel to Vail where the workout is more beneficial or hit one of the roadcuts in BLDR CYN.

I'm not trying to drag this thing on, but you can't compare the soft limestone of Vail with the hard granite of Boulder - besides, Vail is a destination for ice-climbers (i.e., those routes get a ton of traffic).
As far as visible scratching, you're right, the crampons are more to blame. . . so wear climbing shoes or boots-sans-points.

And, I still don't understand why or how this is an "environmental issue". No rubber debris and no chalk (marks or debris) to "contaminate" anything - where is the environmental concern?

cameron wrote:I'm not trying to drag this thing on, but you can't compare the soft limestone of Vail with the hard granite of Boulder - besides, Vail is a destination for ice-climbers (i.e., those routes get a ton of traffic). As far as visible scratching, you're right, the crampons are more to blame. . . so wear climbing shoes or boots-sans-points. And, I still don't understand why or how this is an "environmental issue". No rubber debris and no chalk (marks or debris) to "contaminate" anything - where is the environmental concern?

Cameron,

It is environmental impact in its potential to change the character of the established routes.

Ken, one of my favorite forumcators - I usually agree with you.
However, drilling 3/8x3" holes in rock can be construed, albeit stretching, as environmental impact; surface marring couldn't even streeetch to an impact.

"Environmental impact" is something that effects the environment; i.e., something that puts pressure (pos. or neg.) on a natural system.
Visible scratches on granite slab have less impact than chalk cakes on crimpers.
Not to digress, my point is that there isn't an environmental impact, only an aesthetic one for the local sport climbers at the "Park".
Now, for the bolt machines to complain about some "scratchers". . . to me this is without any warrant, less a selfish one.
It's neither environmental nor social. If it were social, then it would be anti-.

This site (the park) isn't even visible to Joe Tourist - it's simply a sport climbers peeve. (I'm a sport climber too - although much more of a traditional climber - so I'm not anti-sport per se. . . although I don't sit well with over-bolting and certainly not bolting near natural pro).

Lane called me the Tradiban (a play on Taliban. . . hardcore traditionalist), but it's not true. . . (sounds of a sword on a millstone).

cameron wrote:Ken, one of my favorite forumcators - I usually agree with you. However, drilling 3/8x3" holes in rock can be construed, albeit stretching, as environmental impact; surface marring couldn't even streeetch to an impact. "Environmental impact" is something that effects the environment; i.e., something that puts pressure (pos. or neg.) on a natural system.

That depends on the environment - in this case, the "climbing" environment (routes, holds, etc.). You usually seem like a pretty smart guy, Cameron, and I doubt that has changed, so I would say: Dig deep, grasshopper, and it will all become clear to you.

Man! I can't believe this thread made it this far. Well, maybe I can.

Ah yes, semantics. . . .
"As both Ken and Jason have noted, it is most important to be socially and environmentally responsible when considering where to practise."
I guess the use of "socially and environmentally responsible" in that sentence threw me off. . . .
It's Al Gore's fault, he's got me all flustered in this environmental thang.

the sport park in boulder already is a choss pile so have a great time. i climbed there this weekend and after seeing all the drilled pockets and such,i don't think you can really make it any worse.

Come on Ken, this is Boulder and every topic drags on.

If I go to the foot of where the ice forms in Boulder Canyon down by Castle Rock I can walk around in my sneakers and notice, without squinting my eyes even, the marks left by crampons all over the wood, rocks, talus etc. That's the kind of visual impact I'd prefer to not see too much of throughout the canyon. Sure, the way in which the sport Park was formed is artificial but if groups of drytoolers went to the SP to play, the environmental impact would be seen and felt much more. Containing it at a few dedicated crags is what would work but climbers never seem to be able to do that. A place like the Sport Park can always be made to look worse. Once you decide that the place is a pile then the broken glass bottles appear and so do the cigarette butts, BOTH of which I saw last week along with the discarded finger tape.

two wrongs don't make a right. just because people in the past chipped holds (lame) and defaced the rock doesn't mean that you now have the right to do it.

I agree. If there is really an interest in drytooling somewhere it would be a good idea to just find some location where there aren't any established rock routes and christen it with axes; keeping the location away from other conflicting climbing styles. Castle Rock is a mess. Whether due to climbers, bikers, picknickers etc I don't know, but it would be much nicer if those old mattresses and broken beer bottles weren't always there.

why trash another area when the sport park is already trashed.atleast by keeping it in one spot then the rest of boulder canyon won't get destroyed.well as much.

I think the problem with drytooling in the Sport Park is the conflict of climbing styles that would be there. I'd much prefer having one spot that was recognized as a drytool park because then I wouldn't have to deal with people getting pissed off because their favorite rock route was being defaced and if anyone else was climbing next to me, most likely there would be some comraderie and encouragement rather than tension.

This is definitely an interesting debate. This last weekend I decided to head out to the sport park with the tools to check out the area. after parking the car at the sport park we decided to put the tools on the inside of the pack so nobody could see what we were up to(like a bunch of criminals). as we were hiking up to the crag and noticing the old cement that was mixed in with the rock as you come into some talus, we moved away from the crowds. We headed toward the clock tower as everyone was climbing in the sun. for me I wanted to break the tools out right away and get jiggy. my climbing partner was urging me to be a bit more discreet. By the way we didn't bring crampons. Anyway, the first route we climbed(didn't use tools) was the big dipper 5.11a. cool route.. then we went over to the lower section of the clock tower and climbed a few routes there. as we moved to this area of the clock tower there was a party of five climbing there and we started a little dialog about where these routes that were chipped were. we told them what are intentions were. interesting enough they seemed to not really know what we were talking about(Like what the hell is drytooling?) so as the party left we climbed a few routes(still not breaking out the ice tools). Once we finished climbing rubber chicken we started talking about setting up a top rope off of the chicken lips anchors and drytooling the choss that is between this route and Alfa chick. As we were having this dialog, up walked a nice couple coming up to climb in the same area as we were. again, my buddy and I stopped what we were talking about. we had some salutations between us and this couple. after the salutations, we asked the couple about all the chipped holds. the gentleman had made reference that he had written the guide book for the area( I'm assuming Mark Rolofson), which I had purchased not 24 hours earlier, said that the chipped routes weren't as rampant as was made out to be. At this moment in time I told Mark what are true intentions were. we were looking for an area or routes to drytool on. At first he seemed to be against the idea of drytooling in an area that was established as sport climbing. more dialog ensued and he admitted that he hadn't really tried drytooling and couldn't be certain one way or the other what kind of damage could be done with tools. Mark definitely gave us some other alternatives as where to go(thank you). So we never really pulled the tools out to try it at the park. I think what it came down to was we wanted to be considerate of the people around us. Although this definitely isn't reciprocated. people smoking(I love second hand smoke), dogs fighting and climbers then yelling at the dogs from the top of climbs,climbers having safety meetings at the base of climbs. whats interesting is if this other shit is acceptable why wouldn't drytooling be? I love all aspects of climbing whether it be sport climbing, trad climbing, ice and or mixed. I definitely play on both sides of the fence as far as climbing goes.

kevin fox wrote:...if this other shit is acceptable why wouldn't drytooling be?...

Could it possibly be because drytooling affects the rock and all that "other shit" doesn't...?

Okay! This talk about how ugly the Sport Park is getting ridiculous. The Sport Park is infinitely more attractive than Castle Rock. You walk up there and are greeted by tree-lined trails and shelves along the cliff bands, with views of a beautiful river below. Castle Rock looks like an industrial park. There are slings, bolts, and chalk all over the wall, a beaten dirt road around the entire formation, and third-world picnics going on daily. I regularly see dirt baggers sleeping in and camping out of their cars whenever I drive through there.

The problems with SP have nothing to do with the landscape, and everything to do with the lack of thought and creativity put into designing the routes. Easter Rock is visually uglier than the SP. There is so much chalk and so many bolts there that it looks like BRC. Are the routes at Easter and Castle better than at the SP? I think so, but that is just my opinion. I'll bet any amount of money that there are plenty of moderate and new climbers who prefer the SP. Is my or your opinion more valid than theirs? No. It isn't.

Jack just made a very astute observation about a real concern, and I am curious about how many of you are going to hear that message, and how many are going to just continue this programmed tirade about style.

I agree that dry-tooling creates more permanent, visual impact than bolts, and I can prove it. So can Bob and anyone else who has and knows how to correctly place a bolt. I am not even as concerned about a few scratches from occasional dry-tooling. That is just the price of pursuing human recreation. I can live with that, but I have a fundamentally hard time with that idea that intelligent human beings can't figure out how to exercise basic consideration and respect for one another. Get off the elitist train. If you don't like the style of climbing at SP, Don't climb there. Just don't take the self-serving attitude that it's okay to fuck it up for others because you don't respect the style of routes there. That's just selfish bullshit.

Matt put up a 5.13 headpoint in the Flatirons. Good for him. He has also climbed his fair share of clip-ups at Rifle and other places. I would almost bet money that his route would have been bolted already if there weren't a moratorium on bolting up there. I am not suggesting that he would have bolted it, but chances are that most of the unprotectable faces would be, and would get lots of traffic.

Don't get me wrong. I like Matt. I don't know him well. I have only bouldered with him a few times, but he seems like a nice guy. In other words, I have no personal axe to grind with him. That said, I think he gets a bit too high on his soapbox about Boulder Canyon. It's not his style, this season, but it works well for hundreds of other climbers. That is the beauty of Boulder. There is something for everyone, which is more than I can say for so many other places. If the Flatirons stay bolt-free, Matt and others - maybe me too when I'm back in shape - can put up all the death routes they want up there. I am fine with that. I even embrace it. It just creates more diversity in the available climbing opportunities around here.

I just wish that we would see fit to evolve beyond the elitist roadblock that inspires so many of these petty arguments. Like I said earlier, and this is just my opinion, dry-tool all you want, in a manner that doesn't damage the established routes or cause unsightly visual damage to the rock. Better yet, develop an area in Boulder Canyon for the purpose of dry-tooling. I think that would be an awesome addition to the already diverse climbing opportunities now available to us.

hey Ken,
just to let you know I'm not talking about how ugly the sp is. had a great time saturday sport climbing there. I enjoy all aspects of climbing. will go back and climb there again I'm sure.

kevin fox wrote:hey Ken, just to let you know I'm not talking about how ugly the sp is. had a great time saturday sport climbing there. I enjoy all aspects of climbing. will go back and climb there again I'm sure.

Kevin,

I don't understand your correlation of barking dogs and safety meetings to the physical impact of dry-tooling. BTW, I wasn't speaking directly to you. I was addressing everyone who uses the style argument as a justification for doing things that are inconsiderate to the rest of the community. The diehard trads - or so they claim to be - argue that bolting is inconsiderate to them, but they never stop to think about the reality that there are hundreds of trad opportunities around for them, myself included, and that hundreds of climbers, myself included, also really enjoy sport climbing in Boulder Canyon.

My argument is not to stop dry-tooling on routes. It is that you should go about your activity with the attitude that you are going to take every precaution not to mess up established routes that others have the right to enjoy. Taking the attitude that such behavior is acceptable because you don't respect the STYLE in which someone else developed something, is unacceptable. We depend on sharing these resources, and we need to learn to be flexible with one another. Boulderites talk a big game about how enlightened they are, so I am saying: Prove it in your actions.

If you are going to argue a point, make your argument relevant to that specific point, otherwise it just comes off as ranting. I mean "you" as in everyone, myself included. On a positive note, what most struck me about your post was that you were aware of the potential issues with pulling out the tools, and you made several attempts to hear the opinions of others. That is a clear examle of the type of consideration that I have been getting at all along. As it turned out, you found some alternatives. If everyone behaves like you did, we'll all be better off.

Hi Matt,

It's good to know that you feel that way, and I respect your being humble enough to say it publicly. I am not without accountability for slamming SP. If I'm not mistaken, I was the one who got the assignment to shoot the accompanying photo for that article (two climbers crossing arms on adjoining routes). I knew what the article was going to be about, but I shot it anyway, for a paycheck.

I haven't seen you for a long time, so we haven't had a chance to have this discussion. I recently watched the film in which your repointed that route and then made some off color reference to the activity in Boulder Canyon. That is the beauty and curse of documentary films. They freeze our words and attitudes in a moment in time, immortalizing them for better or worse.

Anyway, I hope all is well. I'm sure that I'll see you around town sooner or later.

Cheers,

Ken