Black DIamond gear (protection) made in china??????

Cpt. E wrote:but this thread has certainly drawn out the village-people who visit this site and has once again provided a sounding board to denounce the US why not? it's entertaining, and you can do it here w/out fear of being popped in the back of the head!

What is wrong with pointing out areas in which the US can improve? Is it more American to pretend that we are perfect? It seems that if anyone doesn't agree with you, then they are not patriotic Americans.

did the FONT thing to differentiate our quotes- sorry man, but i work in CAPS alot too w/ my job.

not sure how seriously i want to be taken- but i appreciate that some of what i said sounded well thought-out. thanks!

as far as homelessness goes, there are support structures to provide them ASSISTANCE to change their lives and become self-supportive. When Jr. grows old enough to ditch his loser dad, he'll be thankful that he lives in a free society where he can work hard, be successful, and not fall into the same traps his daddy did.

John J. Glime wrote:All I can say is Wow. Listening to some of you is scary.

John, you are right. It is. I wish we could all step back and drink a beer; but the simple fact remains the we are targeted by those who wish nothing more than to obliterate our citizens in the name of nothing.

Granted, what I'm talking about has no relevance in doing business in China.

But, yes, it's a bad deal and I wish we didn't have to deal with it, but we do.

BrettPierce
7 minutes ago

Cpt. E wrote:
but this thread has certainly drawn out the village-people who visit this site and has once again provided a sounding board to denounce the US why not? it's entertaining, and you can do it here w/out fear of being popped in the back of the head!

What is wrong with pointing out areas in which the US can improve? Is it more American to pretend that we are perfect? It seems that if anyone doesn't agree with you, then they are not patriotic Americans.

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could go on all day about where we can improve. but for the time being, i'm having alot of fun bringing out your inner-socialist rather than working.....

Mark Nelson wrote: John, I gotta tell ya, I wish we had more. We're talking about dealing with terrorists, not U.S. citizens. Frankly, I'd like see those assholes in Guantanamo lined up in front of wall and shot.

That demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of who is there. Mark, your posts always seem to have some sense to them, but this one actually frightens me. Yes, I am actually FRIGHTENED by that thought. I doubt you have any or all of the evidence to try any of them... Yes, there are no doubt SOME very bad people there. But there are some that do not deserve what they are getting.

Perhaps you should read a little more about some of the people that have been held there (and eventually released, or not yet.). You might want to start by reading about it from the ACLU. For what it is worth, I spent 2 hours with one of the lawyers volunteering for the ACLU to represent some of the Gitmo cases. They are obscene.
They are not US citizens, they are, however, humans.
The Declaration of Independance put forth the philosophy of the founders of this nation. They didn't care who you were or what nation you came from- they stated that there are basic rights as humans that a nation must respect.

Isn't your proposal akin to turning over any of our soldiers to the Iraqi's or Afgani's and letting them use their systems to try our guys if they are accused of wrong doing?

BrettPierce wrote: What is wrong with pointing out areas in which the US can improve? Is it more American to pretend that we are perfect? It seems that if anyone doesn't agree with you, then they are not patriotic Americans.

Criticism isn't a problem, but people can disagree as well.

Actually, the main thing I think sets people off (including myself) is when people compare the US to Stalin, Apartheid, and the worst racism.

Currently compared to any country I'd rather be a minority in the US than anywhere else (I'm Irish, so I'm only a minority in Denver). Even places like France, Germany, Britain continue to have regular voilent racist riots. We have more freedom here than anywhere (except 3rd world where there's no laws), or else there wouldn't be such a debate. The socialists (Stalin (history)/Castro (current)/Chavez (new)...) just had outright firing squads against dissidents, outright took people's property and titles.
We DEFINITELY have room for improvement. We ALWAYS will, as we get better. We have always been a generous nation, but have learned our generousity isn't always done right. Just because we could've done something better in hindsight doesn't make us bad.

Tony Bubb wrote: Yes, there are no doubt SOME very bad people there. But there are some that do not deserve what they are getting.

Agreed, my context is a generalized statement from someone sick & tired of catering to terrorists.

Isn't your proposal akin to turning over any of our soldiers to the Iraqi's or Afgani's and letting them use their systems to try our guys if they are accused of wrong doing?

No, you can't correlate professional soldiers serving the U.S. to terrorists; our professional soldiers are bound by a military code of conduct & Geneva Convention, along with NATO & UN treaty.

I always liked Lennon and Marx. John Lennon wrote some purty songs, and groucho was funny. What I really find hilarious is that one of Amercias big chants is to "Stop the Spread of Communism" and most of what we buy is manufactured in a communist county. Americans are the least informed most entertained people in the world. Fifty percent of us cannot get out of our indented couch's to go vote! I guess this 50% is watching Oprah. What's worse is that we do not even care about each other. I could be myopic in this statement. Corporations use to put their workers welfare first. Now it seems many corporations will throw anyone under the bus for a buck. I know this has happened at HP. Most of my neighbors work there and this is their sentiments. It seems like our country's moral stance is either abortion or gay marriage and ethics like in climbing, can be assigned to bar stools. What about some morals towards each other. How about some ethics in business. It seems that pure capitalism is not working as well as the founding fathers planned. Exxon made how many billions of dollars last quarter? Enron took the money and ran. Even our Attorney General is corrupt. It will be interesting to see what becomes of our country.

Gee I feel better!

The only thing I can say about BD going to China is that if one of their pieces made in China ever fails due to an manufacturing error, they might as well close the doors to their gear division. It seems that no one is really sure they are even making this move and look at all the hubbub. Think what the witch hunt will be like if a piece fails.

Have a nice day everyone.

Shawn Shannon wrote: Just because we could've done something better in hindsight doesn't make us bad.

Your are right, but it does mean that we should learn from our mistakes.

Charlie Perry wrote:... How about some ethics in business.

I think this is more to the point about what's going on. Is it a bad ethic to work within other countries or to work with others from different countries?

We're working within Costa Rica, Mexico, Turkey, Japan, Vietnam & many others. I think John Glime has some great insight from his travels as to corporate moral responsibility.

I think it depends on the situation.

Man, everyone is an armchair expert on business ethics in country and out. Ethics are in the eye of the management. If the company is run by bad people the ethics of that business will be as lousy as legally possible (if not worse). If the company is run by good people the ethics will be better. The locale of the business is trivial! It's the ownership/management that makes it good or bad. Slash and burn business ethics exist here, there, and everywhere. Just b/c a society has affluence doesn't necessarily mean it has a conscience (I have worked for some lousy folks in this country), it just means they are better at portraying it.

Bubb - Spending a few hours with an ACLU attorney made you an expert on who is at Gitmo, what there history and intentions were/are? If there was a group out there whose ethics are questionable, it'd be the ACLU.

Ethics in business. . . the point exactly.

cameron wrote:Bubb - Spending a few hours with an ACLU attorney made you an expert on who is at Gitmo, what there history and intentions were/are? If there was a group out there whose ethics are questionable, it'd be the ACLU. Ethics in business. . . the point exactly.

I suspect that means I have ~2 hours more background info more than the average guy. I read plenty too. I've read court documents and congressional reports on rendition victims as well. You know, the ones where congress says they were kidnapped, tortured, and held for months without change, and were eventually cleared of wrong doing?

Google these:
"Bisher al-Rawi" + rendition + innocent
"Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah" + rendition + innocent
"Khaled El-Masri" + rendition + innocent

Ask me why we are going to Britain, Jordon, Germany, etc... kidnapping their citizens or visitors, dressing them in diapers and photographing them, beating them, flying them to Afganistan, Syria, etc... torturing them, holding them for 6 moths, then setting them free, naked on a hillside with no ID. Or in Al-Rawi's case, kept in Gitmo for 4 years before being released without charges.

Line that up against a wall and shoot it!
Admittedly, in China they already would have...

I guess maybe the A in ACLU has lost it's meaning? I think not.

They are in existence for the protection of our civil rights. To translate that into providing the world's terrorists with legal representation, I don't get that. I understand the necessity of: if this administration does this, then they could do the same to its citizens. So, as to safegaurd our rights, the ACLU is quite necessary in the happenings at Gitmo. Fine with me.

Let's move forward in the legal process then, or set them free. Which part of Boulder can we drop them off at?

Cameron: Not sure you actually read my post before responding?

"Fiedler - Again, I don't care about China. . . I care about America."
- My post was exactly about what is good for the US; I didn't say much at all about what would help China.

"This conversation has become convoluted due to some trying to make this into an issue whose context isn't important. HISTORY and POLICY and which country is the most horrific."
- I agree, and didn't address that. (My own 2 cents: A lot of home-grown and foreign criticism of the US is inane. But in the past and present the US hasn't always done things we can be proud of. I'd still much rather live here than any where else, for the rule of law, personal protections, and mix of idealism and pragmatism.)

"Try to stick with the issue here - BD has sent its homegrown facilities to China to save a few dollars for their personal fuckin salaries!"
- I just think your view here is really really simplistic, as I tried to point out. For the sake of argument, lets say you are right and it hurts the US to import products made overseas: So what is your solution? Ban foreign-made products? That just causes more harm than good in the long run.

Kevin Craig wrote: Ha ha! Mark, you clearly have not been paying much attention to current events for some years now (not that I blame you!) Very disappointing in general. ... I am seriously going to have to reconsider my pre-order of a set of the new Cobras if, as stated, they're being assembled in China. :^(((

Well, I am credited with being very slow. sorry, missed your post this morning.

I guess you could always switch to Grivel and be a real climber!

Mark Nelson wrote: John, I gotta tell ya, I wish we had more. We're talking about dealing with terrorists, not U.S. citizens. Frankly, I'd like see those assholes in Guantanamo lined up in front of wall and shot.

Hell yea bro. I would definitely agree with that...

Mark Nelson wrote: No, you can't correlate professional soldiers serving the U.S. to terrorists; our professional soldiers are bound by a military code of conduct & Geneva Convention, along with NATO & UN treaty.

...which they obviously always follow, right? So if you're a soldier (terrorist) not specifically employed by a country, you should be shot? And how about the paramilitaries in Columbia on the payroll of U.S. based corporations? Why is nobody rounding them up and shooting them for killing and terrorizing their own citizens? Oh, right... because they're working for us.

I don't hate the U.S. I just hate foreign policy that gets innocent people killed. And I hate the hypocrisy that passes for patriotism these days. Terrorism is terrorism, regardless of under what premise it is committed. Just as a sweatshop is a sweatshop, regardless of what country it lies in.

Instead of focusing our hatred on the 'commies' and the Islamic terrorists, we should be working for the betterment of all people. That has clearly not been the agenda of the U.S. up to this point, and it is up to us to change that.

Tavis Ricksecker wrote: ...which they obviously always follow, right?

No, but they are held to account.