Hasty, extemporaneous, and passionate bitchin about the place I love...

1. Organizing climbers is an oxymoron, it's kinda like herding cats. SLCA does a great job. The main problem is that having such a large population means many more climbers. Go to saltlakeclimbers.org for more info.

2. Speed of Life should stay as is. That may be the most committing route of its grade on the EB, and should stay that way. Working that route is probably similar to preparing for a gritstone headpoint (at least for me). The crux moves are brilliant and the runout finish requires Zen-like relaxed-mind climbing. Adding just one bolt would rob people of having that experience. Climbing doesn't have to absolutely safe. Stay at home or go somewhere else if its not for you.

Colby,

I love the way you raise your voice to make the point that there are no volatile issues in this thread. You do know that typing in bold, capital letters is shouting when you're online right?

JJG, lol... that was rich

Hank, well said!

jonathan knight, nice leading!

Ken, way to work DA into this thread

It seems like this issue is dividing along party lines... just like it does every time. (I don't mean Dems vs Reps)

There are the those who want things to stay the way they are so that future generations of climbers can have the chance to test themselves on the same problems and there are those who believe that they have a vision that will make it better for everyone.

Which is better? Hard to say.

I might be in the "make it better for everyone" camp if it wasn't for the fact that every 4 years there is a new generation of climbers fresh out of school and ready to apply their vision of what "better" is. Over time this can have a drift effect and take the original character out of an area.

anyway that's my $.02,

I'm off to Estes Park for what looks like some rainy granite. :(

Brad Brandewie wrote: Ken, way to work DA into this thread

Way to pull DA out of everything that I said. I'm glad to see that you are able to focus on the bigger picture.

I am all for replacing old bolts, especially on the East Gate, I just don't think there needs to be a huge trail building effort and espresso shack on the hike to every crag.

These routes seem pretty established to me...just don't see much action because of the style of climbing. Tingey's seems established, of the few million times I have climbed it, it has always been there when I roped up....why isn't it established?

Glenn said: "the way I see it...the majority of all the established routes in LCC should be even more accessible...I mean...even my girl of 5 years who is intermediate/expert climber can't really appreciate this area..."

why can't she enjoy them? Just curious...

Tea wrote:

"These routes seem pretty established to me...just don't see much action because of the style of climbing. Tingey's seems established, of the few million times I have climbed it, it has always been there when I roped up....why isn't it established?"

Agreed, When I first climbed Tingey's in the 70's it had all natural gear belays. The original line spoke for itself. It didn't need to be established. Now, an idiot established a rap station right at the crux of the original 2nd pitch...adding bolts to an old classic. Yeah, actually the route is established now.

Wanna know why there aren't crowds up there?
1) It IS a relatively quick hike but its about 10 or 15 minutes (ouch it really hurts) past Becky's.
2) Its vertical to nearly vertical granite which most people consider slabs these days - even though its a lot of edge climbing.
3) In the guidebook there are two 5.7's, two 5.9's, three .10's, 9 .11's and two .12's. Not exactly loads of crowd pleasing .7-9's.
4)The letter "R" attatched to lot of those climbs and/or they were drilled on lead.
5) The climbing is often mixed crack climbing or face climbing with small gear for pro.
6) Its east/southeast facing and gets loads of sunshine in the summer when you don't really wanna go near the place because its so hot and the friction is horrible.

A lot of people just don't wanna play this game and I think that's just fine. Never, ever saw anyone else up there. But then I usually climb at a time of day when there usually isn't anyone else in the canyon anyway.

glen kaplan wrote: nah...my whole thing is spreading the love not hoarding it...

That's how bad things are spread, like crowds and chlamydia. can't you just keep it to yourself? Its like getting a bro deal from a shop then running around telling everybody what a great deal you got. Dude keep the quiet places just that, quiet. you don't have to be "the man". No offense GK. my 2 cents.

Brett

A few years ago I went on a vigilante trail work spree in LCC to try to get people to spread out a little...the East Gate is one of the places I hit. I figured it would all grow back in a couple years because nobody would actually spread out.

I love it when I'm right!

PS, that's just more ammunition to the argument for doing trailwork...it doesn't take long for the scrub oak to come back anyway, so if you screw something up in "someone's" eyes, it will soon fix itself.

I don't live in UT, so perhaps this isn't relevant, but I recently decided to "revitalize" a once proud crag in my area. I spent $20 at Lowe's on the biggest, meanest pruning shears I could find, and let me tell ya, you can do a lot of damage in an hour with the right tools. If you want a new trail, I highly recommend you do it yourself. Its easier than you think. Get some surveyors tape (also available at Lowe's, in the H/W section) to mark the route. People will undoutedly bitch and moan about the environmental damage, but you won't see anyone bush-whacking to avoid your new thoroughfare.

That tape is a KEY component of one of my favorite lcc trails. Mike, you're right about it all growing back - or at least a lot of it. If there were lots of easy stuff it'd be crowded. If it were 10 minutes closer to Becky's area... wait, its only about 10 minutes past becky's.