Toprope or lead at the Lake?

In the Michael's Project forum, this came up:

Mike wrote: Does anyone lead at DL? I've only been twice but both times we were the only people leading; everyone else was TR'ing. We were told by some locals that we should take the trail to the top of the cliffs b/c "That's where you have to go to set up the TR anchors." Even the picture on the front cover of the guidebook was a TR. Just wondering. -Mike

I am wondering how many people tend to lead and how many people tend to toprope at Devil's Lake. Why do you tend to climb one way over the other?

For now, I toprope. I'm primarily a gym climber, and most of the folks I climb with are gym climbers. Some of us are edging towards lead climbing, but finding someone with experience to climb with is an issue. Time is also an issue.

Lead, because I feel its better style and I enjoy it more than top roping.

I do both, but I TR much more than I lead. I like to tell myself it's because leading at the lake is scary, the gear is tricky, and I hate how many climbs are half great climbing followed by 20-40 ft of pulling up on ankle-breaking ledges, but really I'm just a wuss. Part of my goal for next year is to push my way up the grades on lead a little bit. Previously I had been mostly trying to onsight lead, and next year I'm going to TR climbs to get an idea of pro and the moves, then lead. Probably not the best style, but good enough for me.

The top roping mentality is exactly what irks me about Devil's Lake climbing... people who climb in this style climb for a different reason than I do and I don't like hanging out with them, having to listen to them, etc. obviously that is an elitest thing to say, but really I think it is just a matter of why we climb and what we love about it.

Top Rope Certified!!!!!!

Jesse Bond wrote:John, Can you expand upon your thoughts about the reasons behind why you climb and how they are different than the motivation of those who prefer to Top Rope?

Pausing to reflect, I agree, one type of climbing is not more valid than another type. Rereading my post, some of my comments make me sound like a jackass, true colors shining through I guess:) But different styles are done for different purposes. Each of us go through the trouble to get to the crags for a reason, our reasons are different.

I don't like climbing with people whose purpose is to go to a climbing gym outside. I don't find enjoyment in it, unless I am drunk. In my experience, most topropers are in this category. Taking friends to try climbing for the first time is one thing. Going and leading a route, and then letting people toprope that route is another thing. Going to a place with the experience and gear is to solely set up a toprope anchor is another thing. The first two I can relate to... the last one I can't. At Devil's Lake I have seen a lot of the last one in my experiences there. Why do people go to the rock with the sole intent of toproping? Is it to have an adventure? Perhaps. Is it to see how hard they can climb? Or is it just because that particular route is unprotectable?

Personally, I don't climb to get in shape. I don't climb to see how hard I can crimp. If those are your goals, then perhaps toproping is for you?

The unknown (relatively) is what is important to me. I want the adventure of climbing with consequences. I want to know if I am up to the task. If I am not, I want there to be consequences. I enjoy the proficiency required to walk up to the base of a climb and lead it onsight and test my meddle without first rehearsal. That is just me. For the record, I am the type of person who doesn't feel that much enjoyment for sport climbing either. Not knocking it either, it has its place, but I don't feel fulfillment when I climb that way.

I apologize for coming across as overly judgemental. I try not to be, but when I am at Devil's Lake, I just don't have that much fun. It has nothing to do with climbing in the Midwest, it is the abundance of topropers at the lake that makes me not enjoy it as much. Partly, I feel wierd leading routes when other climbers are around watching. I really don't like leading when topropes are hanging in the same areas, it takes something away from my spirit of adventure I think. I just don't enjoy it as much.

The people that are toproping may be having their own adventure. I am not knocking all topropers, I am trying not to knock toproping. I am just saying I don't like that type of climbing myself. It doesn't fulfill me.

If I work on a route and climb 5.12 on toprope I feel strong. If I onsight lead some infamous 5.7 I feel a sense of accomplishment. It is just different. I don't know if any of that makes sense, or if it makes me sound like a jerk. I have been known to be a jerk now and then so this wouldn't be the first time. Sorry if I offended anyone. Hopefully I answered your question.

Oh yeah, I forgot to address the idea that toproping is EVIL. I don't believe that either, ha,ha. In toproping's defense, I think Bachar said that he feels toproping is the purest form of climbing. Maybe it is...

I've gone back and forth on this issue. If I spend some time away from the Lake, I tend to become a bit more anti-TR. I have returned many times and have said "I'm only going to lead during this trip." Then I lead the routes that I can lead, and I realize that there are a bunch of routes I can't lead or don't want to lead. By the end of the trip, I end up walking up the trail with only webbing and biners in my pack.

I think the headpointing (for lack of a better word) style provides a pretty good middle ground. Instead of "just toproping," I sometimes think of TRing as a good way to practice for routes you wouldn't normally think of leading. This isn't onsighting here. That, for me, becomes a more and more theoretical term on the East. I have seen many friends use the TR to help push their leading level. I too have set out on climbs knowing exactly where to put the gear. I probably also put tick marks next to the important gear placements. Nice, long tick marks...

Jay,
Just curious. From what I gather, you and your friends climb pretty hard. At what grade do you feel that you have to stop onsight leading and need to practice pre-placing gear on T.R., place tick marks, etc.?

John,

I think that the "headpoint" style can be applied to any grade. I know people who have used this technique to lead 5.9.

As for the tick marks, well, that's a personal choice.

Good point.

But that method of headpointing is due to mental weakness (the mentally strong way is to onsight as many 5.9's as you need until you finally feel the confidence to start getting on 5.10's- this works for lower grades and higher grades.)

My point/question is, it seems like if you keep working up the grades onsighting you probably eventually come to a level of difficulty where to onsight isn't very realistic. As a person who will never climb that hard, I was just wondering what that point is. And seeing as you seem to be a pretty hard climber, I thought you might have some thoughts on that subject?

I would question your assertion that the 5.9 headpoint is due to mental weakness. If this climber has never been able to break out of that 5.8 plateau, then this technique can help him lead that 5.9. This in turn can bring about 5.9 onsights eventually.

I think it depends on the area. Places like Yosemite, Indian Creek, and Squamish have well-potected, simply-protected routes of all grades. Aside from some notable exceptions, Devil's Lake lacks those "plug and go" type routes. Leading tends to be a more serious proposition. The cruxes are at the ground, there's a lot of stuff to hit, and the gear is often difficult to place.

So, I have been using this technique at the Lake for a long time. I remember headpointing Thouroughfare (11a) when my onsight lead ceiling was 10a. Sure, a stonger mental attitude would just go for it, but headpointing the route eventually gave me the skill and confidence to onsight routes of this grade. Plus, and I have always said this, if you can lead a certain grade at the Lake, you can lead it anywhere.

Jay Knower wrote:I would question your assertion that the 5.9 headpoint is due to mental weakness.

If a person has plateau-ed at 5.8, then they either have not lead enough 5.8's to start getting on weaker 5.9's, or they have a mental confidence block. If they choose to break that barrier by headpointing, that is a sign that they weren't mentally strong enough to give it a shot on lead first.

Restated (IMO): Headpointing is mentally weaker than onsighting. I am not saying people are mentally weak, but if a person walks up to a climb and decides that he/she doesn't have the confidence to lead the route, and then that person decides the way they want to gain that confidence is by working the route on toprope, well, sorry, but that is mentally weaker than if you wait until a time that you finally are mentally willing to try the thing onsight.

I don't care if people headpoint. I agree that it works. I wasn't trying to knock the practice, I was more wondering at what point does the physical difficulty get in the way of the mental difficulty at the highest levels.

This goes without saying, but how many times have you sweated up something on lead to have your partner saunter up after you? and vice-versa. The game of onsighting and leading, in general, is a mental one more often than physical. But I imagine that at the higher levels of climbing, the physical eventually beats out the mental, because the holds are just so desperate, etc.

And climbing R routes or X routes is a totally different story in my opinion.

I don't know if the experience is different at the higher level. I would argue that the 5.12 climber goes through the same emotions that the 5.9 climber goes through on a "hard" (this is a very relative term) lead.

I submit that headpointing can still hold a mental challenge. This last summer, I got all psyched up to lead All the Way at Devil's Lake. I had toproped it clean a number of times in a row. I had the gear figured out (to the point where I used a tick mark for a crucial stopper placement). However, when it came down for me to lead it, I just couldn't do it. Even though I had done the initial boulder problem many times on toprope, every time I tried to lead the route, I fell on the first hard move (once ripping a brassie and later landing on some well-placed pads). I just couldn't commit to the move, because I knew that if I stuck the boulder problem, I'd have to continue on the less dificult, but more serious moves higher up. I didn't have the mental strength even though my toprope ascents proved my physical strength was up to the task.

If you have 5.12 climbing strength, then you have the proportional strength to hang on the small holds to place gear. However, you may not have the mental strength to actually do the route, as I found out.

I would like to clarify that I have my own battles with the mental side of climbing. Sometimes I am filled with confidence and sometimes I don't have any. Sometimes I want to climb something so bad, but I wait until I can follow someone up it first. But what I have learned is that this is much less fulfilling (and is obviously mentally weaker) then those times where I finally forced myself, practically by self-pointed gun to finally suck it up and try a climb I have been afraid of. Those times where I waited, and finally ticked a climb that I had been too weak mentally to try before are so damn fulfilling.

They are worth the wait, and I feel like I have lessened/cheapened the climbs (for myself) where I chickened out and headpointed first.

Jay,

Your last description is so damn good that I feel the need to go climb something right now.

I feel your pain, you are right in that regard, headpointing doesn't always do the trick, you still have to lead the sucka!

I think this issue is entirely personal, and all about motivation. I suppose you can analyze it in terms of risk and reward. I've found that leading, especially at the Lake, rarely gives you one without the other. There nothing like onsight leading. The more you commit, the higher the stakes, the more you get out of it. It's poker. It's the thrill of gambling except outside in a gorgeous setting.

Leading onsight means you go all in. But that's not always the right choice. You have to ask yourself why you are doing it. There is no black and white ethical line.

Lots of climbs at the Lake are just too risky to be worth it. I evaluate climbs on two different criteria: physical difficulty, and safety. They are a separate as oil and water. I'll try to onsight a line that is at my limit, depending on its protection. How steep is it? The steeper the better. How good is the gear? And, just as important, how hard is it to find and place gear? Convoluted flaring crack or face -- harder and more dangerous to onsight than a splitter crack. Is there a place where you can't fall without injury? If so, how hard is the climbing in that section? Does the climb inspire me enough to take that risk?

Then the physical aspect comes in. If the climb is easy enough for me I can afford to be wrong. If the climb is at my limit I'd better be damn sure that I'm sure, because falling is a real and accepted possibility.

These are all questions I think about before I tie in. The answer to these questions determine which end of the rope I tie into.

I'm a big fan of headpointing. If you're not ready to onsight it, you have this style to push your physical boundaries and learn just how long you can hold on. You can learn about mental focus, and breathing, and placing gear in less than ideal stances. Then you have those skills when you try to onsight something else.

There's also nothing wrong with toproping. I find the rewards to be less, and the climbing less memorable. But that's my choice, based on my ability and experience. I never lead anything unless I want to lead it. If you hold out for perfect ethical purity you won't climb nearly as many pitches in your lifetime. Sometimes it's more fun to just string up a rope and play.

Glime, we know your disrespect of Devil's Lake stems from your negative young adult experiences. Have you been to Devil's Lake recently? Or, are your comments based on events that you experienced twenty years ago?

True climbers will climb whatever is around. Life, work, relationships and family dictate a lot of peoples choices on where to live and climb. If I lived near Vedauwoo I would learn to love offwidths. If I lived in Austin, I would learn to love short limestone. If I lived in Madison I would learn to love....

While top roping may be the masturbation of climbing who doesn't enjoy yanking or sliding one out now and then? No commitment, stress, or tricky unenjoyable protection to deal with. Sure it is an ephemeral satisfaction that will not last long, but hey, it's quick, easy, and safe.

Personally I like how people hammer home the idea of being mentally strong to onsight something and then make statements about french-freeing to get through a hard section of a climb. Some people may have issues with headpointing and others have issues with people who hangdog or pull on gear to get through a tough section - maybe you should wait til you're mentally and physically ready before you try a 5.10? (Is there then the suggestion that it's okay to aid your way up a route from the ground up if you can't do the moves free but not top rope the moves first? I find this odd - you're still not mentally strong enough to the pull the moves off or you'd be sucking it up and leading it with falls.) (NOT my own view, but trying to expose a bit of a hypocrite....)

As far as head-pointing is concerned Matt Samet wrote a good article discussing the pros and cons. Here is the link: metoliusclimbing.com/articl…