AMGA Rock Certified Guides in the Tucson area

Tucson1

If you are such an experienced climber, why do you feel you need such a highly certified guide to lead you around? I have climbed with many experienced climbers from other areas. You should have done what they do. They post for a climbing partner in the area.

It seems more likely that you are just a coward with a bone to pick. Maybe you should go climb in another area, like maybe Florida. The high spots are not so high there, for when you finally fall off your high horse.

“Tucson1”, your postings are moronic, and it’s clear you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Here is the list of expectations of Rock Instructors and Rock Guides, directly from the AMGA website:

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An AMGA Certified Rock Instructor should be able to:
• On sight GUIDE 2 clients at a 5.10a level up to and through grade III
• Climb traditional and sport protected climbs at a 5.10 level fluidly and comfortably
• Demonstrate a good knowledge of industry standard equipment
• Create and implement improvised rescue in vertical terrain
• A basic understanding of short roping
• Demonstrate mastery of terrain assessment, potential hazard, risk management, and client care
• Show an understanding and practice of Leave No Trace Principles

An AMGA Certified Rock Guide should be able to:
• On sight guide 2 clients at a 5.10b/c level up to and through grade V
• Climb traditional and sport protected climbs at a 5.10 level fluidly and comfortably
• Demonstrate a mastery of short roping and transitions in technically demanding terrain
• Demonstrate a good knowledge of industry standard equipment
• Create and implement improvised rescue in vertical terrain
• Use the right technique at the right time
• Demonstrate mastery of terrain assessment, potential hazard, risk management, and client care
• Show an understanding and practice of Leave No Trace Principles
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POINT #1: The only difference between a rock instructor and a rock guide is some shortroping and guiding routes longer than grade III. That’s it. A certified rock instructor is FULLY CERTIFIED AND COMPETENT to guide in Southern Arizona, which has only a tiny percentage of routes beyond grade III.

POINT #2: Your provocative comparison of the difference between a rock instructor and rock guide being similar to the difference between a surgeon and a nurse’s aid is so alarmingly out of proportion that you have boldly announced to the world that you are completely stupid.

POINT #3: Jeff is the highest-certified GUIDE in southern Arizona, and I can tell you from plenty of experience that he's exceptionally COMPETENT.

I invite you take some AMGA courses yourself. You may be surprised at what you learn. Maybe you can start with the Top Rope Site Manager Course (the easiest one) and see how you do!

Geir Hundal
AMGA Certified Top Rope Site Manager

PS – Tucson1, WHAT’S YOUR REAL NAME? Maybe we can go climbing together some time!

Tucson1 you have missed the point of this site.
MountainProject "The Premier Resource for the Climbing and Mountaineering COMMUNITY"

The people responding to your post are not all friends of Jeff Fassett. It's just that he is a known member of our community. You on the other hand are NOT. You are an anonymous coward who broke the only rule for the site in your very first post. "Don't be a jerk" - really, it's not that difficult.

If you are as experienced as you claim and you are as familiar with the AMGA certifications as you would like us to believe then you would know that the Rock Instructor course certifies guides for routes up to Grade III. With the exception of a few aid routes on Baboquivari there are no routes longer than Grade III in the area. So Jeff would be wasting his time and money to get the Rock Guide certification unless he wants to guide elsewhere.

If you'd like to be a member of the community you should start by apologizing to Jeff.

Tucson1,

I hear God has the qualifications you're looking for, but he's booked through May.

There are a few misconceptions floating around on this board. I'd just like to hit on a few of them. This post is not meant to put anyone down, but to clarify a few things.

1) You must be certified to guide on public lands.

This is not true. Most public lands have rules that an individual must abide by to work on those lands. Some places require a guide to have guide training, others require first aid skills, and others require leave no trace skills. Every place is different in the United States.

For guides to work in member countries of the IFMGA, they must have complete AMGA certification. This requires that the guide is certified in the rock, alpine and ski disciplines.

2) A certified guide is better than a non-certified guide.

Currently there is no certification requirement for most people to guide in the United States. As a result certification is a voluntary procedure. It may lead to pay raises in some companies or to better marketing, but most people do it because they are looking toward the long term goal of gaining all three certifications so that they might work in Europe where there is a lot of money for guides.

To take a rock certification exam, an individual must complete two courses prior to the exam. The courses include the Rock Instructor Course and the Advanced Rock Guides Course. People who have completed these courses have the training to take the exam, but perhaps not the money. Each course costs about $2000 and the exam costs about $1500. That's a lot of cash for a guide.

Yes, you do know what you're getting with a certified guide. But you will also know that you will be getting a level of professionalism from those who are AMGA trained. If someone has completed the first course, they know a lot of stuff. If they've completed the second, they know even more. It is totally acceptable to call a guide service and to ask about the level of training of your guide. You're looking for AMGA training and at the very least, a Wilderness First Responder first aid certification.

3) A non-guide will teach you just as well as a guide.

People who are not professional guides are climbing for personal reasons. A guide is climbing for you. Someone who spends 200+ days a year teaching and guiding will provide you with the experience that you want. A trained or certified guide will do it safely and will teach you modern techniques.

The average beginner has no idea how to assess an individual's skills in the mountains. If someone is just making things up or has little experience, this could put a beginner at physical risk. This is why many people feel more comfortable with a guide.

In addition to this, everyone who knows Jeff -- and I have no idea who this is -- thinks he's a great guide. This is what the poster is really looking for, a guide recommendation. It sounds like he got it and he should probably pay attention to it.

4) A guide is not a teacher, but a guide.

Most guides teach more than they guide. Only a few lucky ones have it the other way around.

5) A guide is a paid "escort."

Different guides have different ideas about what they are doing. I tend to be education oriented and like to see people graduate to the point where they don't need me. But that's not what all of my participants want, some want to simply be guided.

Other guides will simply guide you up a route or put up ropes for you. It's perfectly acceptable to ask your guide about his or her guide philosophy. This may help you in your choice as to who you want to go with.

Hopefully this helps!

Jason D. Martin
AMGA Certified Rock Guide

Jason -- will you be my guide ?

Jason,

All that may be true, but as far as I'm concerned if someone want's to become a "real" climber the guided route is not the way to go. And also I have to comment on your use of the term "modern techniques". Everything else you say may be true, but the use such a phrase begs rebuttal in terms of it's use in this context; there are very few truly "modern techniques" of note and the idea that the old guard can't or hasn't evaluated / adopted the few found worthy is highly debatable. I personally consider all this discussion on guiding far more relevant and valid in an Alpine climbing and Mountaineering context and far, far less relevant with regards to rock climbing.

There are a lot of ways to become a "real" climber... One way might work better for one person, where another way might work better for another.

Many of those I've taught are now "real" climbers. And I'm sure there are many people who read this board that started with a guide and found their way to a successful climbing career. It's ludicrious to say that there is only one path to success.

What defines a "real" climber? Leading? Multi-pitch climbing? Hard grades? Aid climbing? Alpinism? Guides can help people attain each of these goals quickly. So I don't see any reason to put down those who seek professional instruction.

Jason

Jason,

I didn't say there is only one path to success - I said I don't recommend the guided approach for folks wanting to become rock climbers. "Professional instruction" would be better described as "commercial instruction" in my opinion and I simply find the combination of rock climbing and business fairly repugnant. Can someone get from point a to point b in such a manner? Sure. Will they miss a lot valuable tangibles and intangabiles in the process? You bet as far as I'm concerned. Again, ying-yang commercial relationship between gyms and guides speaks volumes about how little folks really learn about climbing in gyms beyond physical moves. Now, I will agree that many folks in such a condition is probably better off with a guide then on their own, but with this particular [feeding] cycle is promoted as the way or as a better way to become a climber, well, then at that point I can only shake my head and pity the loss of much of what it even means to be a climber...

What does it mean to be a climber? Self sufficiency?

If that's the case, it takes far more time to reach this goal when undertaken with recreational climbers. Professional guides will bring an individual to this point in a tenth of the time...if that's the participant's goal.

There is a world of difference between some kid teaching at a gym and someone who has devoted their life to the art of mountain guiding.

Every piece of gear you buy, every mountain climbing book you buy, evertime you pay to see a slide show, every piece of climbing clothing you buy helps promote "commercialization" in climbing. It's hard for me to think of myself as a commerical entity as a guide because those of us who do it make so little money at it. Instead we love not just climbing, but literally the art of teaching people to become climbers. We are proud to watch our students grow from complete novices into competent and self-sufficient climbers.

The start of this thread was about the value of the AMGA in guiding. I spent tons of money to gain my certification. Why? Because I wanted to be as professional as possible...

I think if you hung out with a few professional guides your opinion about this would evlove. It's probably not going to happen with a few posts on an internet forum. It would require climbing -- as friends -- with a guide and listening to him talk about what he does at great length.

We provide a lot to the communities where we work. We replace bad bolts, we clean up litter, we give beta freely, we donate our time and our energy to access fund type events, and when we work in the third world, we often adopt entire families and provide them with employment that they would not otherwise have. Climbing guides give a lot back to their communities while making a substandard living. We do it for one reason and one reason alone. We do it because we love it and because we take deep pride in our work...

Jason

Tucson1 wrote: I need some help finding a Good rock guide in and around Tucson. Is this our only "Guide" in the Tucson area? Jeff Fassett Certified Rock Instructor 8009 E. Snakeroot Dr.Tuscon, AZ 85710 jfassett@climbarizona.com 970 925-7625 amga.com/guides/rock_list.html Do we have any AMGA Certified Rock Guides in Tucson? Above, I've added what I found on our "local Guide" who's just certified as an instructor. Kinda like taking my kid to school and asking for the teachers aid, not the certified teacher! I'm looking for a guide in the tucson area and would like one who's AMGA Rock Guide Certified or even better, IFMGA Certified. Anyone know of one? I can't believe it's so hard to find a competent guide! Thanks,

lets remember the original thread, TUCSON DICK is shopping for a guide and is calling into question the competency of an AMGA certified rock instructor as opposed to an AMGA certified rock guide. I think Geir answered that quite sufficiently.

Jeff is the most competent person (and i know many truly talented climbers) I have ever seen with respect to advanced rock craft. For those of you who do not know him, he is Jedi Jeff. Yoda ain't got shit on my man! I can truly, and from the bottom of heart (handsome gratuity), claim that Jeff is a master!

P.S. A disclaimer before I begin. I am a retired guide (cuz i couldn't stomach idiot clients anymore -though most clients are awesome) so my comments do not reflect the views of the AMGA or any practicing guides.

I apologize in advance, because i am about to break guideline #1...give it a few lines though. This reply is in response to the Tucson dick seeking a guide he deems worthy. Bro, sorry to say, but we are the ones who decide who is worthy..that's why we're the guides. I'm assuming the dick to be a male, since everyone knows females do their homework before vomiting ignorant bullshite for all to see. You should be ashamed, you little client you!

So we now all know the difference between a certified guide and rock instructor, the semantics of which have only recently been changed. It used to read guide level 1 and 2. I found the teacher aide metaphor pretty funny, cuz if you (that's you dick) took your child to school and asked for the teachers aide, they'd politely say something like "we're sorry sir, you are misinformed. Teacher's aides do not teach our classes, teachers do...is there any reason you are specifically asking for a teachers aide?" The translation of that is...dude...you'll never find the right answers cuz you don't know what questions to ask! (you voted for Bush didn't you, both times i bet).

The reason I'm so heated about this is that Mr. Tucson dick jumped out guns a blazin', talkin' smack from an ignorant perspective....bro, the main difference between teachers and guides....students come to learn, it's a process of growth and necessity. Annoying students get notes sent to their parents. You, MR DICK, are a silly little client groveling in the dust of our footsteps and frequently the topic of hilarious retrospective story telling and the occasional guide-song devoted to just how gumby your sorry excuse for "adventure seeking ass" really is.

Look, I'm not being mean out of spite...mostly cuz you usually tip well (after we've provided your pathetic little ego with its annual dose of extreme). I'm being mean because you've offended me. I'm hurt man! I've known Jeff for 6 years...I've guided under him for 5 seasons. What all who read this should take away as my message....besides the fact that Jeff is the man... "we don't need you, you headache wining slower than time make me lose faith in humanity...client!" Go play golf! although Jeff has gotten quite good at golf and will probably kick your ass there too.

...and for those of you claiming that your years of experience and expertise rival any guide's and the "whats your point" type mentality...suck it up...get on the wagon. No one will take us seriously without standardization. Would you like some yahoo from the sticks with years of experience pulling teeth, who oh by the way is not a member of the American dental society, working on your cavity?

Well if it works for you... then continue to belay a follower off your harness, dangling from a pseudo-equalized anchor you managed with a string of quickdraws and your gear sling! (ya probably thought that to be quite crafty). Friggen cry babies!

...and please don't respond to any typos...you won't be making a point.

gabe metzger wrote:Jeff is the most competent person (and i know many truly talented climbers) I have ever seen with respect to advanced rock craft.

As I've said, I have no doubt Jeff is a great climber and a competent guide.

gabe metzger wrote: ...and for those of you claiming that your years of experience and expertise rival any guide's and the "whats your point" type mentality...suck it up...get on the wagon. No one will take us seriously without standardization. Would you like some yahoo from the sticks with years of experience pulling teeth, who oh by the way is not a member of the American dental society, working on your cavity?

Maybe you simply don't know who's quote you're referencing, but I suspect Bob has been "sucking it up" for more than a few years. Personally, I have no need for being taken seriously or standardization. As a matter of fact I deal with standards and being serious every day in my work as a technologist and I climb specifically to escape them. I'm also not selling climbing and so have no particular need to productize it anymore than it already is.

gabe metzger wrote:Well if it works for you... then continue to belay a follower off your harness, dangling from a pseudo-equalized anchor you managed with a string of quickdraws and your gear sling! (ya probably thought that to be quite crafty).

You clearly have no idea how sketch things could get at belays on a long pitch that ate almost all your nuts which is all you had. Otherwise you'd have come up with a better example. Sometimes we just hip belayed off one nut and made almost a science of stancing. Actually we exlusively hip belayed on hard multipitch routes and took endless long and hard dives doing it. And hell, I still hip belay all the time and yes, I can escape it just fine, thank you.

Jason D. Martin wrote:We provide a lot to the communities where we work. We replace bad bolts, we clean up litter, we give beta freely, we donate our time and our energy to access fund type events, and when we work in the third world, we often adopt entire families and provide them with employment that they would not otherwise have. Climbing guides give a lot back to their communities while making a substandard living. We do it for one reason and one reason alone. We do it because we love it and because we take deep pride in our work... Jason

Lots of us have endless hours and countless days in replacing anchors and pins, tons of time coordinating with land managers, organizing volunteer events, monitoring Peregrines, and still manage to bring along new climbers. Why do we do it? "Because we love it and because we take deep pride in our work..." - exactly - as if commercial guides have any corner on that particular motivation...

Gabe, considering that the original post was probably posted by one guide trying to discredit another, your whole rant about lame-ass clients becomes kind of ridiculous..

I'm sure you do a good job of deluding yourself that mountain guides are the only people on earth with some nutsack, but I'd say that of those clients whom you've identified as "girlie-men", probably 50% are otherwise involved in some other activity that requires a lot of courage i.e. military, police, big wave surfing, emergency room medicine, extreme mountain biking/dirt biking, extreme snowboarding, martial arts sparring/competition, piloting airplanes... etc, etc, etc..the list is endless..Different people are afraid of different things..

You're doing a disservice to guides like Jeff by showing that kind of arrogance..

Healyje wrote:I didn't say there is only one path to success

Healyje wrote:"Because we love it and because we take deep pride in our work..." - exactly - as if commercial guides have any corner on that particular motivation...

If you don't like people saying you said there is only one way to do things, don't come back using the same argument on someone else.

Healyje, you don't think getting a guide is useful for climber growth, duly noted. So here are a few other opinions.

I learned to climb from a guide (Jason Martin, in fact...). I am solidly convinced that I was able to learn far more in a shorter period of time with structured instruction than I would have following someone else. This gave me the ability early on to deal with some climbers who said they were a lot better than they were, and I was able to extricate myself from more than a few tricky situations. It can be very difficult to find a more experienced partner who is willing to take you out on some easier climbs and really teach you with consistency. Such people do exist, but I find it's hard enough to find a good climbing partner in the first place, much less a mentor. For me, learning how do things the right way (or at least, a right way - a way that is safe and works), the first time, gave me a solid platform from which to gain experience by myself out on the rock. I completed my first AMGA course this year, and would like to be guiding this summer out in Washington. I'm not sure what a "real" climber is, but I can safely and confidently guide people on routes up to 5.10a grade III in difficulty...

I recently completed an EMT course, and am working Ski Patrol at Winter Park, where they are putting me through an additional OEC course before we can patrol on the mountain. In this profession, it is absolutely necessary to get your skills down pat before you start to gain experience. Your response should be almost automatic by the time you hit your first patient out on the hill. It would be foolish to send somebody out on an ambulance without having any formal training. Climbing is not like this, but it arguably could be; as in the Medical world, it is patient care that requires it, here in climbing, your partner's life depends on it.

My learning style suits acquisition of the technique first followed by experience and fine-tuning. I am, after all, an MIT geek. Sure, I can see how gaining knowledge and experience as you go can be a profitable and meaningful way to climb. For me though, guided instruction was essential to the development of my abilities in the time-frame required.

Alright!!!...how bout that fire under the pants!

So, did everyone read the disclaimer i wrote before beginning my rant? OK, just checking...not a guide anymore, not doing a disservice to other guides...merely soliciting laughs from those on the inside of the inside jokes...yes petty, I know, but quite entertaining non-the-less...so sorry.

Healyje...Is that pronounced Healy G...is that like some kinda rappers name (kidding; get your panties out of a wad). Again, I'm a wise ass...so sorry...and i mean no disrespect to those like Bob and probably yourself who have spent countless hours of community service building trails and bolting, and establishing bold lines all the same. I'm serious about that. But moving on...
About that anchor comment. Sorry you took that personally. Must of hit a sore spot...for all of us privy to the finer art of hip belaying, "anything works" is not appropriate for the common climber. Look around, the common climber is more gumby than ever.
,
So my friend, i understand that if you sir, have an RP and a shoe lace you're happy...but "getting by" is not what this is about. I'd hoped for a bit more of the "read between the lines" thing to go on, but i probably did not articulate myself well. (a few beers, that kinda thing) whoops.
...My point was that many people demonstrate poor judgement when it comes to rock craft. Healyje, I'm sure you could equalize your boner with a butthair, but most of the climbing community would rather rely on something more substantial. Could ya show us that technique by the way...does that fall outside of the "base level set of competences" that you mentioned as one of the AMGA's attributes. Damn, they really need to add that to curriculum!...take the exam bro, bet ya fail...wait, you wouldn't take the test and don't care about it because you don't believe in standards when it comes to an industry where people's lives are on the line...and i know, you don't feel guides should be exploiting the wilderness and so on and so forth....sorry, ranting.....

A huge issue here is people learning subpar techniques from friends, and don't throw that back at me cuz we all know what i'm taking about...and here is where guides differ from other public service-type climbers...We rarely see climbers offering education to those who obviously need it when they see something dangerous. We often here comments like "lets get out of here before we've got to rescue that dude". don't tell me that ain't the truth! I will attest though, to the often selfless attention guides give to non-paying inexperienced climbers who are making bad decisions. It comes with the territory, "don't let people get dead". Not macho, not ego...responsible.

Christian, yes my rant was ridiculous and no i am not deluded into thinking guides are the only people with nutsacks. I'm sure yours is quite big and you probably run it out over small wires and chomping mountain lions...You must have missed the comment about "most clients being awesome" and i fully respect 99% of mine. My rant was in response to the TUCSON DICK, its specific to that person's comments and highlights my thoughts about the remaining 1%. You are right about the credentials of clients in "other" walks of life; there are some bad ass folks out there and most of em don't do it climbing...So what does it say when neurosurgeons, pilots, swat teams, big wave surfers and such completely and totally respect THE GUIDE? It means...the art of guiding is far greater than the sum of its parts...your nutsack for instance. You've got two nuts, I've got two nuts...my clients think I've got three nuts!

Bob
...we've met at Plotinus (spelling?) Wall. (By the way, can I still get those pictures from you?) I'm not dissing you. I respect your status in our community and I'm taking your reply about "nice rant" as a compliment...cuz i know it had to make you smile at least once! I wasn't whining, i was venting...and my point about sucking it up: Guiding is a profession and it is here to stay. It is relatively new in this country (unlike France, Spain, etc) so it is bound to receive some resistance...but the bottom line...The AMGA is not telling you how to climb. It is setting a standard of safety in education and practice by utilizing the best current evidence that streams in from gear manufacturers, climbers, guides, land-use managers and public authority figures. Climbing has gotten too popular to rely on subpar education strategies. Is that so far off that folks cant accept it?

...and finally...Healyje...since your comments seemed to stem mostly from your own ego, and not in response to my comments directed towards..well..not you....and CLEARLY I have no idea how sketch things can get at a belay after a long pitch bla bla bla...how about you walk us through the process of escaping a hip belay with nothing but a boner and a butthair....could you include photos with force vectors superimposed? Thanks, amigo!

i love the AMGA!

gabe metzger wrote: Healyje, I'm sure you could equalize your boner with a butthair,

thats funny

strange we havn't heard from tucson1. do you suppose he....cut and run?