Wasatch Fixed Anchor Maintenance Forum

Tony, Thanks for your civil reply: Just a few more comments.

You said:

"I did not install the bolts on the "Italian Arete". They were added after I climbed it"

You also said in your 1995 guidebook:

"Retrofit by James Preziosi, Tony Calderone - Aug 94"

So Tony, which of these two accounts are true?

You Said:

"My point is that I can simultaneously touch solid cam placements and bolt hangers the entire way up the natural line"

This is also the case for Italian Arete.

You do have your name listed as having done the first ascent of Italian Arete. You also claim responsibility for the retrofit. Why are the bolts next to a good crack? Why are the hangers not painted? Again, are your bolts better than other climbers bolts? like on Band Camp?

I don't like to harp on you, but I think you'll get some respect from the climbing community if you'll make sure your own routes are "cleaned up" to the same standard you expect other climbers routes to be. Frankly, I think Italian Arete is fine just the way it is.

If your piranha friends really do exist, please tell us who they are and have them man up and go public, maybe they can contribute.

Tony:

Your missing my point, you keep deferring all of the blame onto James. Why is it ok for him to place bolts next to a crack and not someone else? Those hangers don't look painted.

This whole bolt issue still needs to be worked out. I wish Tyler would have met with you in the first place. Climbers aren't perfect, this includes you, me Tyler, everybody. Perhaps in the future, in order to solve conflicts, it might be best to have both parties meet with a moderator on location.

Tony,

I can certainly appreciate those who prefer not to deal with any internet forums. However, if these anonymous folks who email you won't publicly (ie: tell other climbers) stand up for their actions then I can only say that perhaps they should re-evaluate their motivations and do a self study on their actions.

I would just like to add that I value Brian Smoots opinion perhaps more than anyone elses with regards to Wasatch Climbing and bolting. He steered me the right way more than once.

Gary

tony emailed me. i didnt email him. he emailed me saying i was a jerk.

i started 2 threads. the first was to ask what he did. it is f&&&in lame as h&&l for him to ride on in on his ethics horse and then not be straight up about his own actions. the second post i admit was kind of lame, but hey, he added the route the Natural Line to stir things up. if he didnt, then i suppose he ought to step right up and admit to being an idiot right now. cant have it both ways.

my opinion? he is a legend in his own mind. and he cares so much about damaging his own ego that he has to email people calling them jerks because he cant be straight up.

if you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire.

i dont give a sh&& if your name is g. lowe, if you want to behave like tony you are gonna receive all kinds of crap. fortunately g lowe was too busy climbin to worry about others. not tony, he bushwhacked that climb (stifflers? yeah right) in the early 90's or so he claims and now feels the right to alter what others have come to appreciate.

the legacy you leave tony is not gonna be about climbing, its gonna be about how you stir things up then act innocent. how you bend otherwise fine ethics and style rules most climbers follow then raise a sh** storm when others do things you dont like.

the army of one unfortunately cannot find the truth or speak the truth because of the sh&& in his night vision goggles.

i will remain anonymous here because there are crazed whackos out there who may go all PTSD and PMS on others for answering posts in a way they need to be answered.

tony, dont worry, you are what you think. you think you are a legend then you must be. all better now?

yeah i know, i am a jerk. but only when called for...

Carrie Roberts wrote:Holy Crap! He answered no already! I am one of those "in the shadows" talking to Tony and others about all this s***. My name is Carrie, I climb almost everyday, and all this stupid false name crap is getting out of hand. Do any of you actually read past a sixth grade level? Tony has NEVER claimed FA on the routes in question. He has said at least three times I can recall that he DID NOT chop OTABC bolts. I know this is bold...but I'm pretty sure that nobody on this website really cares about what those with stupid fake names have to say on any matter. Do any of you dumba**'s actually climb? I'll give you all some money to pay your cable bill just to keep you off this website! Get a life...or better yet...CLIMB!

Umm... yeah, actually if you read the beginning of Stiffler's mom soap opera, you will have seen that he did claim FA, then kept doing what he is doing now, which is say that he didn't then that others before him ran up those lines, then say he did again. Concerning the whole chopping thing too. To deny it and then come up with things like chopping and removal are two different things, when the question is not hidden in word play and then he played on the terms. I've seen some really creative word play working with attorneys and Tony should have been a lawyer. Yet to see that in previously quoted posts from Tony he used this very word he is playing with. He admitted that he "chopped" in the Coal Pit area.

I think that the main point of all of the outrage his being missed by some people. The fact that Tony took so long to address this issue only stirred the fire. Surely some of the personal emails would not have been written to him (nothing from me) had he just done this.

When TP said leave the route alone, he should have done just that. Not doing it and arguing with TP about how it should be started this whole mess.

Then when bolts were in fact chopped, Tony had stated that he had in interest in doing that before they went missing. We asked Tony then and he never answered. He also posted pics of changing hangers, etc and all of that lead to speculation again fueled by his silence.

Around that time Tony also complained about the placement of bolts and there lack of painting. Then as we see on Snake Pit, his route, recently put up having the exact issues that he complained Stifflers had! He has yet to comment on that fact of Hypocrisy.

So Carry please don’t come at this like you did when there is so much going on here and all in all the original issues that generated all of this are lost in the cracks. This can all be over now but people are still mad. Mad at many things, but the fact is that someone put a route up, a long nice route, then it got chopped, then renamed by Tony and no one is addressing these issues anymore save a few.

I personally think that Tony should understand the point that is obviously conscientious that you only replace old bolts, or hangers, etc. Never to chop a bolt even if it’s in a bloody crack unless discussing it with the FA group. Not going and change it because the FA people want it left alone. And also, not to add bolts where there are none, unless you are making a completely obvious variation, not one that is inches away from another climb.

Those are the points to be discussing are they not? All of this could have been alleviated had Tony just responded earlier. Now that he’s finally responding, it’s pissing people off when he so indistinctly comments. For I will word play now and say he’s not answering, he’s just making comments that seem like answers!

Round and round this will go, until Tony understands the Hypocrisy issue and acknowledges the fact about what I said above, and also publicly states that he would not chop another route, with no word play, and stops posting this Natural Line thing that is the same climb as Stifflers.

PS. Note: (Concering comments about multiple accounts etc)I have one account here, with my name, which is unique enough, and have photos of myself, and even my tattoo which could identify me easily enough. I do not hide myself, and I know many things I say have valid points, of which, if need be, I can back them up without a worry!

Duncan wrote: Umm... yeah, actually if you read the beginning of Stiffler's mom soap opera, you will have seen that he did claim FA, then kept doing what he is doing now, which is say that he didn't then that others before him ran up those lines, then say he did again.

Actually, I did read the beginning of Stifflers. Although the forum is deleted, I did see Tony reply no less than three times that when he climbed the line in 1993, hardware was already present. I believe he mentioned he was unaware of who the FA actually is/was.
As for the fake name thing, I'm talking about 3/4 of the people who keep these threads going. I didn't mention specifics, because everyone knows who and what I'm talking about. I was merely pointing out that this website was probably not created so people can bash other people for reasons that don't totally have to do with climbing. (Why mention or bust someone's balls for being in Iraq? What does Iraq have to do with climbing?) I just don't understand why they don't use their real names and photos so others can know who they are dealing with...Example...I found out some guy in my old area who was posting on rc.com with stupid comments was a 15 year old turd who knew relatively nothing about climbing and just needed something to do when his mom took his xbox away. Most of these ongoing threads are just going in circles with everyone repeating the same old thing.

I would have to agree with you... and its good to know that you hadn't posted a comment not knowing what is really going on. Those posts, from board people like you put it, kill me and are a waste of time.

Another PS: I don't think who had the FA is really an issue for we all know that many people over the past 40 years have gone all over the Coal Pit; however, I would have to say that if no route was ever claimed and gets bolted and hung now, then whoever busted ass and posted it now should have control over what to do with the route. I think everyone here has said in so many words that we do not want some regade with a saw and bolt gun running around doing as he/she pleases whether Tony is that person or not. The FA may mean First Ascent, but in this case FA just meant who established Stifflers. This FA thing was brought up (I think) as a way to see who has standing to argue the issues at hand. No one person can be found to have that, therefore by default, control of what happens on Stifflers falls to TP and anyone who helped him garden, hang chains, etc. AND NO ONE ELSE!

1) That evidence is deleted

2) & 3)
By Tony Calderon
From: salt lake city, ut
Aug 15, 2006
I chopped 3 of the added studs on the route. There were more added that I did not chop for lack of time. I replaced the old "bush & pin" belay at 70' with two bolts right next to it to maintain the original character of the route. The bush is nothing more than a twig at this point (Probably due to being choked & pulled on for years).

mountainproject.com/v/utah/…

4) See the photos at
mountainproject.com/v/north…

5) Read any one of these forums

6) You did in fact, where told to leave it alone, then did not and posted pics that are in you profile.

7) Refer again to 2) and 3) and is this the same question?

8) Where is this coming from... I haven't talked about that, maybe someone else did.

9) See again 2 & 3

10) See 8)

11) Board with the same stuff

12) I addressed the private email thing in SMSO forum. There is no such thing as private emails. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy when sending emails to anyone, see Bourke v. Nissan Motor Corp, No. B068705 (Cal. Ct. App., July 26, 1993) though that is not the best case, I’m not searching anymore… however you feel about that being posted, it doesn’t change the fact that it was, and information about your idea’s and intentions for the area were initially posted, then edited, which most people read and missed vital claims by you that are part of the problems we are discussing now.

So do these answers “change vital fact” or are they the facts? Prove they are not Tony!

Tony,
I dont have anything personal against you except for your reluctance to acknowledge peoples sincere questions openly. It could be just me, maybe I am a moron and I just need it spelled out. But reading thru this quagmire tells me I am not the only moron who does not understand when you try to tell your side. At least I am not alone on the short bus...My disagreements are not an attack, only an apparently futile attempt on my part to get you to see anothers viewpoint.

Tony said,
"Most FA want the routes they have climbed left alone. That is exactly my point. The original route was NOT left alone. Bolts were added to it. You can keep ignoring that vital fact. But it does not change anything."

In 1983 I soloed a few routes in Fergusons Canyon. Back in those days it was not cool to spray about such stuff, in fact it seemed best not to tell too many others about it at all. I shared it with my closest friend, Bret Ruckman. At that time I had no idea and I dont think BR did that he would write a guidebook in the future. A couple of those routes got bolted by another party. They did not have a clue that these routes had been done. How could they? I remember hiking up there in the late 80's looking at them. I could find no fault in those that bolted them. They did not perform an injustice by bolting something that they had no idea had been climbed before. In fact, their efforts led to some climbs that others could enjoy without having to solo. It did nothing to destroy my experience, nor do I think they violated the rock.

Perhaps this situation (Stifflers) is a bit different because you said that there were a couple old bolts up there, I think TP said he never saw those. Can you really fault someone who never saw those old bolts? How can you so adamantly maintain that the original route was NOT left in its original state when there was no record of a previous ascent? Furthermore, it sounds like TP and crew did perform a bunch of work to make the area more enjoyable to others?

I am not saying my way is the best way Tony. But I am saying that I think your usual good efforts are mis-directed here. I also find it hard to believe that there are that many others out there who want all the bolts removed from that route.

I also do not think that Brians, James or I disagreeing with you constitutes an agreement with people who issue threats or throw some swear words out there. Adding the route to the database, the Natural Line, only inflamed the discussion. I think someone said that you had to have guessed that many climbers would not be to happy about it. I am not against the posting of something like that if it is independant and provides more opportunities for climbers, especially if it is an enjoyable outing at 5.8/9. But you got to admit, the timing and the way it was done made things worse.

The whole point is, people are going to do things that you may not like. I remember climbing with Stu Ruckman at a (then) new place in LCC in the 90's. We were somewhat shocked at the number of new bolts at this particular crag. frankly, we would not have done the same thing. But the routes were fun and it was a good day. Who were we to bitch about these climbers who wanted to experience some virgin rock? Future climbers are going to do things you disagree with. Even the flavor of the "community" is going to change. If those classic cracks dont get bolted and most routes dont sprout new bolts, is it really all that bad?

Sincerely,

Gary (nearly retired climber who likes 5.8)

PS - Note no threats, violence, condemnation or profanity.

I've read the five pages of dialog here. I guess I feel whether or not Mr. Calderone did chop/remove something somewhere is of no relevance. Someone cited something he wrote in a book 10 years ago as evidence. Christ, I can't remember what I was climbing 10 years ago. Give the man a break, he's trying to open up a forum to discuss an important climbing issue. Is it bad to take a 1/4" bolt out and replace it with more robust, modern hardware? It's in our best interest that the gear be safe. Let's face it, our government would try to add restrictions to climbing if too many people got hurt.

This 'Band' route: Who cares if there are bolts next to a crack? The fact is they are there. Could someone have put up a sport route that does not use the crack for the climb or for gear? There are a fair number of contrived sport routes around. This could be one that time forgot.

So, now that I've weighed in on that, here's a question that is sure to set off a few people. Not intentionally, mind you, I am curious. Why is being true to the first ascensionists so important? What is wrong with adding a bolt to make a route a little safer? We use gear and bolts to protect us. I guess from my viewpoint saying you cannot add a bolt is like saying you cannot use any gear that Fred Beckey didn't have with him when he led Beckey's Wall for the first time in 1961. If you use cams, you are not being true to his first ascent.

I see sport routes with the bolts spaced such that you have a potential ground fall on a large portion of the route. Why bother bolting it in the first place?

For the record, it wouldn't bother me if someone added a bolt on a route I put up.

Perhaps I have a different perspective: I am not a hardcore climber. I go out and have fun.

Cheers

carrie roberts writes:

Carrie Roberts wrote:Why mention or bust someone's balls for being in Iraq? What does Iraq have to do with climbing?

well carrie i'll tell you why "operation iraqi freedom" aka "the exxon war" came up on this forum. tony calderone writes:

Tony Calderone wrote: But "chopped" sounds so much more destructive, Gary. Which is exactly the reason for using the word. Even if it actually never happened. That is why people who don't care about the people of Iraq call "Operation Iraqi Freedom" the "War on Iraq" or the "Invasion". They want to make it sound like something it is not. Do you recall hearing about the "War on France" or the "Invasion" of France by American troops in the early 1940s.

i do agree with carrie roberts on one point: "What does Iraq have to do with climbing?" why don't you have a word with mr. calleditwrong and see if he can keep the war out of these threads? now if you'll excuse me my mom said i could have my xbox back.

mr. calerone writes:

Tony Calderone wrote:The next time Mr. Phillips rounds up a group of friends to fight his personal war, he would be well-advised to pick folks with an IQ above 90. Most of us can tell "Maddog" and "toejamfootball" are the same when he logs on with one ID, signs his post with the other ID, then quickly changes it back to cover his tracks. Many of the others are the same person, too. They may have managed to fool climbers with an IQ lower than his, but that is not very many people.

that kind of personal attack on my iq kind of hurts.
toejamfootball

Paul A McCurdie, you have some valid points. I would have to say that it should not be about fame for the FA, but really just for things like this. Who created the original line, to ask the FA party to make changes is respectful, and to say the least allows the information to flow better about what to expect on routes. Meaning that if I expect a bolt and its gone??? We all can imagine what situations that can come from something like that. Anyway good points though.

Tony are you really this deluded? Just ignore everything I say and tell me no evidence given… SERIOUSLY? You must not only have ridden the short bus to stupid town, but you obviously never found your way out! I’m not even going to readdress anything I said, I’m not repeating myself because you are choosing to ignore and justify certain actions!

Now I wish I had an Xbox, because I'm getting very tired of dealing with such a thick skull. I’m logging out and packing for Yosemite.