Matthew 7:1-5

Greetings Children,
I shall quote my son in order to introduce our topic:

Matthew 7:1-5

Stop judging that YOU may not be judged. For with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother's eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "allow me to extract the straw from your eye"; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother's eye.

In order to further illustrate my point, review the following pictures of Tony "Chopper" Calderone's recent route, "The Snake Pit."

1st bolt on the second pitch, just above the belay.

3rd pitch "black hanger". Tony, this looks like a SMC, weren't you complaing about the "quality" of the hardware on Stiffler's Mom. Tony, re-place bolts/hangers, don't RE-USE.

2nd bolt on the 4th pitch



The following photo's of "Chopper's" personalized hardware brightly cast their false light toward the heavens.

First pitch belay, look close.

The 2nd, and 3rd belay chains....un-painted...

Pictures are truly worth a thousand words, so in conclusion, consider these words... " Stop judging and you will not be judged; stop condemning and you will by no means be condemned"

Damn, you caught me Troy. Why the removal? I am a dick at heart, but I am trying to stop acting like one in public. I am trying to learn how to play well with others, etc. I sometimes post before I think.

Still, great pictures by the omniscient Gob.

This seems to be a question of local ethics. If this were done in clear creek canyon, no one would look twice, but unnessecary (which they obvously are) bolts in Joshua tree or Tuolumne would be chopped overnight, especially on a moderate route. A self policing responsible climbing community is a very nessecary thing, if you want to keep your favorite crags from becoming climbing gyms. Interesting that the FA party overbolted sections, but still called the route PG13. Why not bolt the runouts and leave the cracks alone? Unfortunately the arguement for putting up a "well protected moderate" doesn't stand up.

Holy freaking(i'm trying to refrain from using foul language on this site as it seems to offend some people here behind the zion curtain)hypocrite! IN GOB WE TRUST

Team America... Ahhhhh, the quote that teaches us so much… for those who don’t remember its about 3 genitalia areas… and what do what learn about Assholes? Exactly… “they just want to shit all over everything.” Such a hole (Tony) should learn when to take the cork out, and with this whole chopping ordeal someone ought to plug that hole… I mean after complaining so incessantly about these very issues described in these very undeniable photos (props to who took them) has gone out an done the same thing. Is this not the straw that has broken the camels back? Does this scripture not deftly describe this very problem of Choppey’s making?

A look into ones who hypocrisy is not an easy journey, but since Hole failed to see this, now the almighty Gob has had to point this out. Remaining silent on this Hole condemns you by those who are in the jury, where is your testimony? Has Cochran advised you to not testify? Gob’s brother has said so many times, that if you know the truth and fail to testify than forever shall the torments of the everlasting fire and brimstone condemn you. Say nothing and speculation condemns you, opps I mean facts. We all know you are watching all of this, every word you have read. All in the climbing community have all said in accord how we feel, some more strongly than others. Yet you choose to say nothing and by your silence are you guilty?

The weed has grown by your lack of action, or is it by them??? I think everyone really wants you to just bloody well admit what you side step by incorrectly defining terms in the dictionary (some may not understand that) to justify your actions. You are not an attorney and Cochran is dead… What do you say, stop the public berating and address the issue, or leave Salt Lake before you unplug that ungobly orifice to lay more smelly waste in your wake?

Well after reviewing the scriptures and being enlightened on the subject of "chopping" I must say that the verdict is out in plain view. Now Im not a man to put anyone's ethics down when it comes to the loose regulations that governs our great sport, but these pictures shed a little light on what should be a little more regulated. Especially when the route was put up by someone that knows better. I fully agree "stop Judging that you may not be Judged", and for gods sake stop bolting cracks. If your too scared to hang on gear, you should not be there in the first place (not to mention get your name on the first accent). GOB has got my vote.

From the photos, it doesn't look to me like Tony is putting bolts right next to cracks. In most of the photos, the crack pro is well off to the side or below the bolt. In one case, a bolt is on a slab above a little bulge at chest level and the gear is at foot level. Come off that move with the gear for pro and you'll smack the ledge. In another case, two widely spaced pieces of gear are equalized with two cordalettes. A third photo shows gear well off to the right of the bolted line. A fourth photo (sideways) shows gear placements well below the bolt position.

You can criticize Tony for not camouflaging his hardware and for using old hangers, but these photos don't convince me that he's putting bolts right next to equivalent gear placements.

P.S. I am totally against anyone altering a route (adding or removing fixed hardware) without permission of the first ascent party.

i don't know what ron olsen is smoking, but if it makes you that stupid i think i'll pass. doesn't look to me like any of those bolts are more than half an arm's length away. on "one time at band camp" i'd have to be inspector gadget to place gear in the crack that is around the arete and several feet back into the flairing offwidth/chimney. on this route i can plainly see that these placements are WITHIN ARMS REACH!!!! what the fuck is going on!!!! Defending the truth is not something one does out of a sense of duty or to allay guilt complexes, but is a reward in itself. if ron olsen feels that defending guilty depraved "stud" choppers is the path for him so be it. rush limbaugh said it best - "f you commit a crime, you're guilty." Dr. Charles Fox once said,"He that is conscious of guilt cannot bear the innocence of others: So they will try to reduce all others to their own level." seems like this is the path that tony "stud-chopper" calderone took when he started in on tyler phillips and luke douglas. i'm heading up this weekend to climb "snake pit." perhaps tony felt the gear wasn't up to snuff, perhaps tony felt that having to straighten your arm to make a placement might take you off "route" (what is a route?), perhaps tony is just a hypocrital ass that wants to treat others in a condescending fashion. what's the old rodney dangerfield line - "take my advice - i'm not using it." seems this is tony's modus operandi from the looks of these photos. at the very least he used outdated hangers and left chains unpainted. tsk, tsk, tsk. all this from someone that keeps trying to force himself on us as a climbing community "leader." tony calderone, please keep your officious "advice" and "guidance" to yourself. the next time you feel like "directing" the community in policing route development - don't! now if you'll all excuse me i've gotta go pluck some straw from my eye.

mark davis
middling salt lake climber

The fourth and fifth photos show bolts around chest level above a ledge, and gear placements at foot level on a ledge. If those are hard moves, you would want pro at your chest, not at your feet. Come off those moves with gear at your feet and you hit the ledge.

In the first photo, the left gear placement is ABOVE and to the side of the bolt. You can't get that placement until after you've made the move past the bolt.

The gear is NOT equivalent to (or a replacement for) the bolts in these photos.

ron,
i apologize for saying you're smoking something. however, i'm looking at the direction that the rope is running and i can't see a need for the bolts. in photo 4 it appears that the climber needs to follow the dihedral. if one does pull over the roof to the right, maybe, maybe the bolt is needed. i'll climb it this weekend.
photo #5, i just don't see a need for the bolt. the climber pulls over a roof and runs to the anchor. looks can be decieving but it certainly appears that this is a very climbable on natural protection. i'll decide for myself if in Gob i trust. but looking at the the shiny chains, old hangers, and apparent lack of foresight in bolt placement: in tony i do not trust.

mark davis
middling salt lake climber

Minor point. Sorry to derail. Disclaimer I have never been on this route, I'm not a Utahn, but...if you're at the 4th or 5th bolt, you climb with anything skinner than an old 11mm rope, a human belayer (dynamic), a bolt at chest level or gear at foot level, a ledge at foot level, & a fall...you hit the ledge. IMHO, you can't replace good judgment with bolts.

Ok as for the placement of any bolt, it seems to me that the difference from foot level to chest level in not worthy of placing a bolt. This is a absurd gesture. Consider even the tallest climber only having 4 maybe 5 feet from chest to foot, 5 feet in my opinion does not justify a bolt, Im sorry. This is mindless justification.

If you come off a slab move with a bolt at chest level, you might be able to grab the draw on the way down to ease any possible impact. I've done this more than once. And even if you didn't grab the draw, it would be a low-impact sliding fall with the rope catching you about the time your feet reached the ledge.

With pro at your feet, you'd not only hit the ledge, but you would go down below the gear, with the potential for falling backwards and hitting your head, which can happen when you land on a sloping ledge feet first. This happened to a friend of mine when he fell above pro on a slab route in the South Platte, Colorado. Fortunately he was wearing a helmet. The back of his helmet hit the rock and split apart, gashing his head in the process.

In photo #4, you'd be very likely to fall backwards if you came off with gear at your feet.

Sorry, I don't buy the argument that the gear is just as good as the bolts in these cases.

If you can get decent gear AT THE SAME LEVEL as the bolt, but a few feet off to the side, then I'd agree that the bolt may not be necessary.

P.S. If someone did chop fixed hardware without permission of the FA, I think that's inexcusable and the Salt Lake climbing community has every right to be upset. Reusing old hangers? OK if they are still safe, not OK if they are sub-standard.

Not camouflaging fixed hardware? Not OK if the prevailing ethic of the area is to use camouflaged hardware only.

Yes but we are talking about the ethics of first accent here. Your talking about the 1 in a million chance that you are going to fall in that one place. I don't know where everyone else learned how to put up routes, but I always thought that less impact is the way to go. If you have a place to put a cam anywhere within 5 feet of that bolt, I personally think it is a waste. But that is my opinion.

ron and bill,
what i think maddog was pointing out was the hypocrisy of tony calderone's bolt placements or perhaps the irony of tony's comments about other people's bolts. the thread has since been yanked (which i think is a sad state of this website; "oh, i don't like this. it makes me uncomfortable. let's make it go away."; sorta makes me think of the nazism) but it ran directly to the heart of why these photos were posted. whether tony decided to place a "pussy" bolt or not is his call as the f.a. however, from the looks of the photo the bolts are not there to prevent a grounder. they look like they were placed to make the climb "user friendly". fine, nothing wrong with that. means that i will climb it. but i think maddog was weighing in on this to let tony know that the community is well aware of his hypocrisy.

toejamfootball at your cervix

toejamfootball wrote:ron and bill, what i think maddog was pointing out was the hypocrisy of tony calderone's bolt placements or perhaps the irony of tony's comments about other people's bolts.

toejamfootball (whatever)
that is exactly what i meant. although i'm not advocating bolt placement of these types in lcc, if calderone deems it necessary on first ascent, then so be it. BUT STOP MUCKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S ROUTES!!!!! i will go climb snake pit and at that time i'll know whether these bolts are warranted.

mark davis

p.s.
what the fuck is a toejamfootball?!!!???

Look at his icon, it's John Lennon...the name comes from lyrics to the song "Come Together". See here.

Ok I meant to get up and climb the route today, but I didn't. Now just let me state that whether or not I liked where the bolt was place or not, doesn't change the fact that the bolt was there, and by removing it puts this community into a sad state. The bolt was there, you cant change it, but don't remove it. The hole is still there. You cant go back and close the hole. All i was hoping for is next time any first accent person goes up think if you can use pro before you plug a bolt. The pictures clearly show that pro could have been used. That's all my beef was. I didn't read the other forum about "stifflers mom" so I cant talk shit here. However for someone to go pull someone else's bolts for any reason sucks. Remember our sport is under fire always for access. Lets not mess it up. We are all in this for the same reason right. To climb? Lets act like climbers, not children.

toejamfootball wrote:ron and bill, what i think maddog was pointing out was the hypocrisy of tony calderone's bolt placements or perhaps the irony of tony's comments about other people's bolts. the thread has since been yanked (which i think is a sad state of this website; "oh, i don't like this. it makes me uncomfortable. let's make it go away."; sorta makes me think of the nazism) but it ran directly to the heart of why these photos were posted.

Toejam,

I deleted the Stiffler's Mom Soap Opera thread at the request of the person who originated the thread. His property had been vandalized by another climber while he was out climbing. He was concerned about the safety of his family, and wanted to remove any incendiary conversations from this website.

I hope you understand.

-- Ron Olsen, Forum Moderator

P.S. Nice personal photo: John Lennon in New York City, 1974

toejamfootball wrote:ron and bill, what i think maddog was pointing out was the hypocrisy of tony calderone's bolt placements or perhaps the irony of tony's comments about other people's bolts.

EXACTLY!