patience really is a virtue.

I have done my share of teaching and mentoring and have found patient guidence to be the approach that most often works best. Sure there will always be times when the lightning is buzzing and you have to put cordiality aside. But most of the time screaming obscenities won't be as effective. People being challenged in new and different and potentially dangerous experiences are quite often dredging through some of their worst fears and doubts. At times a beginning climber can be nothing more than a thin veneer of control overlaying a panic attack. To them it doesn't matter that the guide sees it as easy, it is 'their' perceptions that rule their responses. So the key is to keep their perceptions focused on the task at hand. Nothing will screw with other peoples' perceptions than impatience directed at them. I know alot of us have spent loads of uncomfortable time letting a newbie friend hang dog up something we could 3rd class. And when they apologetically say "sorry for taking so long" the response is usually "no problen take your time mate". Not everyone is cut out to be a climbing devotee but alot of those past newbies are still out there climbing. Some have even returned to help me get back into it after surgeries. Honestly their reciprocated patience was hugely appreciated. Alot of times you see people bumbling through and you kind of have to let it go. It is after all their learning curve. Occasionally you see someone obviously endangering themselves and you could think of it as Darwinism in action turn away and let it go. But if you see them endangering others who are unaware of the hazards and consequences, YOU HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING. Just try to remember that "whoa dude do you really want to lower that cute coed through just those ratty slings?" will probably go farther than "Hey you f^@<*ing dumb $#)t pull your head out of your ^$$.

Phil, I agree with almost everything you say. But if someone is endangering themselves, we must also speak up. If they get hurt or dead or need a rescue it hurts the whole community. Access can be denied if land owners/managers believe the danger is too high. Keep the hackers safe and we all benefit. True Darwinism rules but we must be ever vigilant against anything that threatens access.

Being pleasant about it is always the best way.

For the people I'm out with, helping out each other is the way, to a point.

What if you are overseeing/leading members in your party, friends &/or new meets, and you notice something that doesn't look to "kosher" (maybe something you would trust your life to) that another party outside of your group is doing that does not affect your party?

What if you absolutely had to fully attend to your own party's safety?

What if helping out that other party would put you or the people in your care in jeopardy?

Mark,

You must always attend to your party's safety first.

One of the rules of rescue is that the rescuers must NEVER become rescuees. This only makes the situation worse.

I think it is the duty of all experienced climbers to speak up or act when they can help in a dangerous situation. It benefits all.

Sounds fair enough to me.

I agree...

Basic rescue skills and self rescue ought to be taught to everyone. Does your partner know what to do if your hurt more than halfway up a route? Most can't escape a belay, nor no what to do with a set of prussicks, if they even carry any. Seems like the basics don't include these skills anymore. Color cordinating, answering phones and clock watching have a higher priority. This isn't a sport for ADD personalities, but its getting more and more prolific. I guess its to be expected, being the fad that it is.

I'd have to disgree climbing has always attracted ADD personalities....and there is a reason. ADD actually means people have a tendency to hyper-focus...at the exclusion of all else. Know any climbers like that?

I'll always give a suggestion if it could avoid a nasty situation. I'm not going to yell up a climb if I think the guy is running it out too far or if he back-clipped one piece, but if I'm at a belay or rap site I'll say, "Hey, can I show you a little trick I learned?" Even if it is just backing up some slings while the first guy raps through and then taking the back up with me when I see it's okay.

Who's going to turn down a new trick? Everyone loves learning to make faster, easier and safer anchors.

Tea wrote:I'd have to disagree climbing has always attracted ADD personalities....and there is a reason. ADD actually means people have a tendency to hyper-focus...at the exclusion of all else. Know any climbers like that?

No, I don't, those kind tend to thin themselves out of the climbing pool. And I don't believe climbing attracts people that can't focus, or in your words, "hyper focus...at the exclusion of all else".

Read what I wrote again Tang, I think you misread it.. I said that ADD produces people who tend to focus heavily on one thing, .....like climbing, or whatever they are "in to" a that moment. I know a lot of ADD climbers, who can only think about one thing.....climbing and all that goes with it! Or do a little research on ADD personality types....you may just be one yourself.

I thought the point of this post was to try and help others, if we could do so without further endangering our selves & team.

Self Rescue should be learned by people if they participate in multi-pitch climbs; but I tell ya, just learning a rescue skill set is only the a start. Effecting a leader rescue past the halfway point in the rope is probably the most dangerous situation a team can encounter. Even if the belayer knows every step all the way to an evacuation, there is still the issue of ascending a counter-balanced line on one piece of pro that may or may not be solid. Then getting the fallen leader to an anchor (in which most seconding climbers are seconds because they don't have the proficiency with gear to lead), is also difficult especially if the leader is knocked out.

So it comes down to a risk assessment before the climb should be made. In a place like Eldo, help is fairly close by; but the backcountry/grade IV type climbs are different. I would almost like to see the more proficient climber not be the lead climber. But, then lead climbers won't trust anchoring, so I would also say that, as well as self rescue, multi-pitch climbers should be solid at redundant anchor building methods and know how to back up & test existing anchoring.

However, the people not doing any of this are also the ones not really reading posts like this either, because they want to go out and enjoy their freedom as climbers and don't want to hear how they should be climbing, and I don't blame them, to a point. But when their freedom starts violating safety & endangering the team, then education from others able to do so, the main focus of this post, should be a priority when team climbing. The mountain clubs & guides work a great deal of their time in safety education by instructing in the field, a valuable resource indeed.

Good point Mark^^

By all means, anyone that doesn't know how to do more than basic rescue shouldn't attempt anything like that described above. Now, as Mark pointed out, assess the situation and reassess at each stage. Does he need you to get to him and help, and you can do it, good. Might be all that is needed. If you're on a bolted route trust the piece above ya. Removing someone from a cliff is dangerous, and there are few that can do this by themselves safely. If you're lucky and climb in a place like he does, then having people within shouting or waving distance is a plus.
Knowledge of basic techniques isn't dictated to other climbers; it's a tool we keep in our toolboxes. After all, don't we all like getting more tools.