What does a Vxx grade tell you that a 5.xx grade doesn't?

Just curious, not trolling.

What does the V-system add in terms of information? It seems like the opposite setup, where everything was under the YDS system, would be very handy. Then, once I broke into a new bouldering grade (5.4, in my case), I'd have some information about how I could expect to perform on my new 5.4 proj up at the crag.

Obviously there's got to be a reason (reasons?) why the two systems exist side by side that outweighs the value of having everything be on the same system. What is it?

Optimistic wrote:Just curious, not trolling. What does the V-system add in terms of information? It seems like the opposite setup, where everything was under the YDS system, would be very handy. Then, once I broke into a new bouldering grade (5.4, in my case), I'd have some information about how I could expect to perform on my new 5.4 proj up at the crag. Obviously there's got to be a reason (reasons?) why the two systems exist side by side that outweighs the value of having everything be on the same system. What is it?

To me, it means, "Don't pack your rope." It is calibrated more for bouldering: ie. on the 5.10-5.15+ range without all of the a, b, c, d subdivisions.

Maybe this will help: climbing.com/climber/10-thi…

Humans arent simple creatures. there is no actual purpose, its simply different because some human was bored or not happy (= motivation to create) with the existing system and created a newer/different one.

I dont think two (or 10) systems are needed but they exist.

why dont we all just shop at wal-mart or just speak English? that would simplify alot also. were humans and simplicity isnt our fortay as a whole (species). individually sure (some), collectively were far too diverse/varied to be that simple.

At least around here, the system used can tell you more about the style of climbing. For example, a 5.12 sport route with 2 powerful crux sequences may have those cruxes described as V5. This lets the climber know that is isn't the usual delicate crimpfest. Conversely, most crack problems, especially offwidth, get a 5.xx grade. These problems climb like snippets of longer routes, you can either climb 5.xx crack or you can't.

Long story short, my V grade doesn't tell me much about my YDS ability because the styles are so different, even in the same area. If a climb does have comparable movement, it will often be given a mix of grades, so no confusion there.

ultimately they are equal in conveying the difficulty. a 5.13 move is a V7 move, a V7 move is a 5.13 move. The difference for some seems to be that they personally divide the two, or think of the two differently. thats on the human thinking that way, the systems themselves are equal. Neither YDS nor the V is supposed to gauge the totality of the situation (like UKs "E" system) just the difficulty of the moves. they are both equal in doing what they are supposed to do: convey the difficulty of the moves physically. whether its x rated, runout or shit landing (in bouldering) is irrelevant to the 5.13 or V7 (YDS or V) system.

The Stoned Master wrote:ultimately they are equal in conveying the difficulty. a 5.13 move is a V7 move, a V7 move is a 5.13 move. .

I don't think so when you take into account routes are graded at 5.13 when they might not even have a move harder than 5.11 on them (ie enduro routes).

if someone climbs a boulder problem where the concensus is V7 then the hardest move is V7. If I climbed a 50ft route where the concensus is 5.13 then the hardest move is 5.13. Neither system says whether its sustained or not. they report/convey the difficulty of the hardest move(s). Clearly our systems arent perfect (nor do they need to be) and we`ve added "x" and "r" to "fill in the gaps". my point is both YDS and V simply state the hardest move (which is relative) youll have to pull. They are both equal in this way.

thats my simple point of view.

The Stoned Master wrote:if someone climbs a boulder problem where the concensus is V7 then the hardest move is V7. If I climbed a 50ft route where the concensus is 5.13 then the hardest move is 5.13. Neither system says whether its sustained or not. they report/convey the difficulty of the hardest move(s). Clearly our systems arent perfect (nor do they need to be) and we`ve added "x" and "r" to "fill in the gaps". my point is both YDS and V simply state the hardest move (which is relative) youll have to pull.

That is incorrect.

Please share how a 5.13 will have a 5.14 move (itd be a 5.14 then right?) or a 5.13 with no 5.13 moves (itd not be 5.13 but easier) will be a 5.13? You can then take those moves and apply a equal V rating no?

isnt "style" also an issue?

will someone please explain what im missing?

The Stoned Master wrote:Please share how a 5.13 will have a 5.14 move (itd be a 5.14 then right?) or a 5.13 with no 5.13 moves (itd not be 5.13 but easier) will be a 5.13? You can then take those moves and apply a equal V rating no? isnt "style" also an issue? will someone please explain what im missing?

A 5.13 might have a harder move than a 5.14 route if the 5.13 route in question was "bouldery" while the 5.14 in question was "enduro".

It really comes down to the particular route and area it is situated in. The idea you are discussing (that the route grade is given based on the hardest move of the route) is very antiquated as far as I can tell traveling around the country to numerous popular (and not popular) climbing areas.

Almost across the board (across the country) routes are being graded based on difficulty of moves, number of moves, amount of rests, etc.

Optimistic what are your thoughts? you state somewhat your thoughts in the opening comments but what prompted you to ask this question here?

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/sharma-to-try-new-clark-mountain-project-possible-5-15
"With cruxes of 5.14b and 5.15b respectively, the route could conceivably be harder than 5.15b."
Endurance is factored into grading. If you link a 5.11c pitch into a 5.11d pitch, the grade will likely be harder than 11d.

It's the same in bouldering I believe, if the problem has two V7 cruxes with a V6 topout move, it will probably be rated a bit harder than V7 because of the added endurance and strength required over a single V7 move.

The Stoned Master wrote:if someone climbs a boulder problem where the concensus is V7 then the hardest move is V7. If I climbed a 50ft route where the concensus is 5.13 then the hardest move is 5.13. Neither system says whether its sustained or not. they report/convey the difficulty of the hardest move(s). Clearly our systems arent perfect (nor do they need to be) and we`ve added "x" and "r" to "fill in the gaps". my point is both YDS and V simply state the hardest move (which is relative) youll have to pull. They are both equal in this way. thats my simple point of view.

Unfortunately, this simple point of view is completely incorrect.

Yes, there was initially the idea that the YDS grade was a reflection of the hardest single move. This even worked for a while. Recall that the YDS was invented in Taquitz, for the sort of slabby terrain where endurance was not a factor. However, the utility of the idea of grading by the hardest move mostly died out decades ago.

The grading scales, just like any other idea that lasts for more than a decade, has evolved to better serve its purpose within the demands of the modern era. Do recall that the YDS was originally designated with a cap at 5.9. This lasted a few decades, but when that upper grade started to fill up with "really really hard" 5.9, people realized that the system wasn't working. So they fixed it...temporarily...by raising the ceiling to 5.10. It didn't take long for the same problem to crop up again, which led the the letter suffix and the open-ended system used today.

Any, the same thing has happened with the single-move-grading system. As climbs have gotten steeper/longer/harder/pumpier, endurance has become more of a factor than single moves (whereas on the 5.7 Tahquitz slabs of old, it really was a matter of single moves). It came to be realized that single-move-grading was about as useful as a system capped at 5.9 (i.e. not useful), and that idea got scrapped.

It would be tempting to say that while the YDS system now is used to rate climbs based on overall difficulty (both hard moves and endurance factors), the V-scale is the system used to rate individual moves. This is a bit closer to true, since, for example, I have a much easier time understanding about what a "V7 move" feels like than what a "5.13a move" feels like. I've climbed and/or tried a decent number of 5.13a routes, but have never encountered a proper "5.13a move" on any of them, since most of us generally avoid stupid one-move-wonder routes. For this reason, calling to mind a single 5.13a move is hard, since the description "5.13a"generally invokes an experience of climbing more sustained hard-ish section. V7 boulder problems often do have a single V7 move, so it is easier to remember what a V7 move feels like. However, even the V scale is not neccesarily graded by single move. Adam Ondra (generally considered a reliable and source on grading matters) said in an interview just a few days ago: "It is true that difficulty even in bouldering is made by linking the moves.". QED.

The Stoned Master wrote:Please share how a 5.13 will have a 5.14 move (itd be a 5.14 then right?) or a 5.13 with no 5.13 moves (itd not be 5.13 but easier) will be a 5.13? You can then take those moves and apply a equal V rating no? isnt "style" also an issue? will someone please explain what im missing?

A 5.13 cannnot have a 5.14 move. As you have said, it would then be 5.14. The YDS grade does tell you the maximum difficulty of move that you can find on a pitch of that grade. A 12a will have, at the hardest, a V4 move, a 12d will have at the hardest a V6 move, and a 13b will have at the hardest a V8 move, etc. The exact matchup between the scales is sometimes subject to a bit of debate, but the overall idea is the same. A V6 move cannot be found on a 12a...this would indicate that the grade is off, or that your beta is whack.

On the other hand, there are many 5.13 routes with no "5.13" (i.e. V7-V10) moves. Endurance is the reason. Lets say you have a 100 foot route that is all 5.8, but with one V4 move/sequence. This would be 12a. Now lets say you have 120 feet of consistent V4 moves, with no significant rests, and all on steep, pumpy terrain. This route could very well be solid 5.13, even though the hardest move is only 12a-ish.

So, to the OP, the V-scale is useful for grading individual move or short sequences, while the YDS is best used to grade cumulative difficulty over the course of a pitch.

Nice post/explanation JCM.

So if there is a 10ft boulder problem that the concensus is V7 (even linking the moves) and I pick it up and (somehow, imagination is needed) place it on a 30ft 5.12a (V4 crux but 5.11 or V2/3 terrain on average) it wont be a 40ft 5.13 by concensus?

JCM you answered my question. I was typing while you were and didnt see your second post. thanks man.

The Stoned Master wrote:Nice post/explanation JCM. So if there is a 10ft boulder problem that the concensus is V7 (even linking the moves) and I pick it up and (somehow, imagination is needed) place it on a 30ft 5.12a (V4 crux but 5.11 or V2/3 terrain on average) it wont be a 40ft 5.13 by concensus?

No, it would likely be 5.13a or 13b. That V7 boulder problem by itself would be 13a. The question is whether the 30 feet of 12a leading up to it make the boulder problem feel much harder. If you have 30 feet of somewhat pumpy 12a, no rest, and then the boulder problem, a 13b grade is possible. If the 12a is more technical and not too pumpy, and then there is a nice rest right before the boulder problem, 13a is the likely grade. If you were to turn that 30 feet of 12a into 90 feet of pumpy 12c, no rest, and then a V7 boulder, it could be 13+ish. This make sense?

Edit...Replied before I saw your addendum. I guess I have now answered twice.

The Stoned Master wrote:Optimistic what are your thoughts? you state somewhat your thoughts in the opening comments but what prompted you to ask this question here?

I guess I'm just attracted to the simplest possible good solution to any problem, so from my (non-boulderer's) perspective, one system seemed simpler than two.

I suppose one benefit of this would be that if you could onsight any 5.10 boulder problem you encountered, then you could be pretty confident that you could onsight just about any 5.10 climbing route that you encountered as well, assuming you were relatively handy with the appropriate protection for the route.

But clearly folks like the V system, so I was just curious as to what they were getting out of it.

A V-grade tells you how hard a move is when you are standing on the ground shirtless with a beanie. The YDS tells you how hard the same move is off the ground dragging a rope and some gear.

V-grade generally refers to shorter sequences (not necessarily just one move as mentioned above) YDS generally to longer ones. So you might see a sport route described as "a V4 pocket problem past two bolts to sustained V1/V2 and a V5 crux". Likewise, sometimes you will see long boulder problems (traverses, linkups, roofs, etc) given YDS grades in addition to V grades.

Also as someone else mentioned it seems like crack boulder problems often get route grades as well. For example there is a right leaning off fingers crack problem at Boat Rock that I've seen as V3 or 5.10 (yes sandbag on the YDS grade...or at least I would imagine so if I could actually send it...).

The Stoned Master wrote:Nice post/explanation JCM. So if there is a 10ft boulder problem that the concensus is V7 (even linking the moves) and I pick it up and (somehow, imagination is needed) place it on a 30ft 5.12a (V4 crux but 5.11 or V2/3 terrain on average) it wont be a 40ft 5.13 by concensus?

Did you really need three people to explain that to you? REALLY!? You are the stoned master :p