Simul Climbing with a Tibloc

So I just read something about simul climbing and using a tibloc to keep the second person from ripping the first person off the wall if the second falls. I've never used a tibloc before but I'm interested.

Taking a large fall onto a toothed ascender could do bad things to your rope.

Aaron S wrote:Taking a large fall onto a toothed ascender could do bad things to your rope.

True. But ideally, the second should not be taking a large fall. The rope should not have slack in it; if it does he needs to slow down. If the leader falls, she wouldn't fall "onto the tibloc," but onto the piece it is attached to (if you know how to set this up properly).

I personally don't use one. I would probably consider it if I were simul-climbing and thought the chances were pretty good the second might fall. Although, I can't honestly imagine simul-climbing in a situation where I thought there was a good chance of the second falling.

I've used the Tibloc for running belays while simul-climbing on lower angle alpine terrain. Even if your second is rock solid on the terrain, it helps with the head when you're leading 40ft beyond your last picket/screw/cam. For more vertical applications, I've heard the WC Ropeman is a better device for simuling since it has a stronger camming force and isn't as dependent on the sheath grabbing fixtures.

I've always wondered if a Cinch would be good in those applications as well. Anyone ever tried one?

I've used them on low-angle terrain as well; 5.1 slab above 100'+ of 5.8 friction. I haven't "tested" the set-up, but I'm sure it would toast the rope if there was much slack out. Of course, the set-up avoids the alternative of 2 people dying, so it's relatively much less catastrophic. I don't think any device would be kind to the rope and other equipment in the system in the event of a fall, but then, it is more a back-up for the unexpected than a "gonna-happen" situation.
Alternative methods that are kinder to the rope are fine as long as they take no longer to set up, use, or disassemble. That's the alpine equation all the time.

Having practiced with the Tibloc while jugging, it WILL tear the sheath if you don't load it carefully. There is no way to do this carefully if you are simulclimbing - it may work but it also may make a bad problem worse.

Erik W wrote: I've always wondered if a Cinch would be good in those applications as well. Anyone ever tried one?

No it is not!!! Do not do this.

Does anyone have a diagram, or explanation of how this set up would be used? Where does the Tibloc go?

Jon

cheifitj wrote:Does anyone have a diagram, or explanation of how this set up would be used? Where does the Tibloc go? Jon

The tibloc gets put on a piece of pro along the pitch. It is placed inverted. So if the follower falls the tibloc locks the rope and the follower weights the piece rather then pulling the leader off. I use tiblocs for simul a good amount. never had any falls on top or bottom though. I would think that the foreces generated by the follower on the tibloc would be minimal enough to not cut the rope. i dont think it woudl be any different then using a minitraxion or somthing to that effect for soloing. still gots teeth. still bites into the rope when weighted. Maybe the diameter of the rope could play a roll in that though?? Maybe an 8.1 could fail? would be interesting to test.

Don't use tiblocs for simulclimbing!

There are others on here that have far more authority to speak on this than me, so I'll let them chime in.

In the mean time do some searching on this site and rockclimbing.com

SAL wrote:The tibloc gets put on a piece of pro along the pitch. It is placed inverted. So if the follower falls the tibloc locks the rope and the follower weights the piece rather then pulling the leader off. I use tiblocs for simul a good amount. never had any falls on top or bottom though. I would think that the foreces generated by the follower on the tibloc would be minimal enough to not cut the rope. i dont think it woudl be any different then using a minitraxion or somthing to that effect for soloing. still gots teeth. still bites into the rope when weighted.

Hans and Yuji used a Yates Rocker for this purpose on their speed ascent of the Nose, and a Wild Country Ropeman could probably be used for the same purpose. Neither of these devices have teeth. The Rocker actually looks like an Ushba Basic Ascender which would also work but there would be more travel in the system when the 2nd falls - maybe about a foot or so.

Tiblocs can be used this way in skilled hands but if not then the Tibloc can shed your rope into shards of nylon hemp in no time. This is because the teeth that grip the rope are as sharp as a pirahna's. whenever any slippage occurs there can be slight time lag before the teeth grip the rope sheath and that is what shreds your rope.
Ropemen are better because they have grooves that grap the rope and because they have a spring they grip the rope faster and don't have teeth that bite into the rope, they use pressure instead.

Basically the way it works is the leader puts in protection and at that point where the gear is placed a Ropeman or Tibloc is placed on the gear and the rope passed through it. In this way when the second falls or puts tension on the rope. The cam on the ropeman grabs the rope and stops the second from going anywhere.

If you want more specific check out Andy Kirkpatrick's website: psychovertical.com.

He gives a very comprehensive explaination.

I used this technique very successfully but you have to be careful.

Climb safe,
JACK

It should be added that you want to put the ascender (ropeman > tibloc) below the piece it is attached to. In other words, there should be two slings coming off this piece: a long one with the ascender; and a short one clipped to the rope. This way, a leader fall won't load the ascender.

I would think that you could use a petzl shunt in this application. I have never tried it but i would think that it would work and would not beat up your rope as much as a tibloc would. granted the piece is much heavier and more expensive but probably safer as well

SAL wrote: No it is not!!! Do not do this.

C'mon, Sal, give an explanation. It's a technical thread after all.

So are you guys saying that the leader should carry multiple tiblocs or ropemans?

cheifitj wrote:So are you guys saying that the leader should carry multiple tiblocs or ropemans?

You don't need many. It really depends on how long the "pitch" of simul-climbing is.

Put one on the last piece you place before your second starts climbing. If you are on a full-length rope, then you have 60m of climbing before you need another one. Essentially, you only need one for every length of rope you are going to climb before setting a fixed belay.

Erik W wrote: C'mon, Sal, give an explanation. It's a technical thread after all.

The cinch is a delicate device. you would be amazed what little effort it takes to keep the camming unit from engaging. it is not rececommended to use directly on the anchor for belaying a second up either. becuase the device can load at an angle that could allow the rope to start zipping through. if the cinch rests on the rock, piece or anything that could orientate the device and keep it from locking you are just gonna see it slip.

all in all it is not the recommended use and you shouldnt do it. I guess that is why i did not elaborate passed what the instructions say is acceptable. Hope this helps.

One additional benefit of using a micro-ascender while simuling that hasn't been mentioned: It helps deal with drag.

If you've ever transitioned to simuling after a long pitch, you know that the drag can be quite bad, and then you sometimes end up having to struggle to pull up slack just to move. A micro-ascender can help: At a good stance, you can pull up enough slack to make a move, and then let go of the rope and then let go while you climb - the ascender will keep the slack from sliding back down to your second.

You can also do this to keep the second on a tighter belay - every time you get a good stance, pull up the rope until you feel your second. That way, if the second does fall, they are taking a shorter fall which is less likely to shred your rope.

Of course, if there's much of chance your second will fall, you probably shouldn't be simuling in the first place...

SAL wrote: i dont think it woudl be any different then using a minitraxion or somthing to that effect for soloing. still gots teeth. still bites into the rope when weighted.

Look closer at a tibloc vs. a Mini trax.

The teeth on a Tibloc are WAY more aggressive. IE they are both sharper and longer.In addition the cam angle in significantly less.

If you use a micro ascend when simul climbing you want to use one that is active...which would be the spring loaded devices. They are already "set" to work on the rope.
The tibloc is designed to be MANUALLY set....by you....everytime.
There are numerous cases documented where Tibloc have caused damage to ropes under minimal loads....specifically in the uses being talked about here.

Use a ropeman.

There have been a couple of threads discussing this(adnausem!) in the past....search for them.

josh

JJ,

No offense, but looking at your profile and your earlier post asking if it rains in Joshua Tree, I hope your question arises out of idle curiosity. In other words, get way better before you even consider simulclimbing, which can be dicey even when you have two strong climbers on the rope.

Another big question is why the need to simulclimb? Lots of really fast ascents don't even require simulclimbing. The climbers are just really efficient and solid at the grade. Maybe that's where you should be directing your efforts.

Always fun to push oneself, but remember to be safe and have fun.