Mixed Routes, Why not just make it sport or Trad, no middle ground

I am new to climbing as of almost three years ago. I want to appreciate and understand the ethics of climbing.

Can you please enlighten me on how making routes mixed is pure and consistent with standards set by climbers before us. It seems that legendary first ascensionist's stood solid on specific ethics; are those the ways? What are those ways?

Also leading into chopping bolts on a route that should be pure, or retro bolting routes that are mixed that should just be a sport climb.

I am very open to this subject and hope to learn as much as possible.

Is mixed climbing a proper way for climbing; is there a proper way anyway?

Interesting question. A buddy and I are thinking about further developing an area near us that saw some work about 10 years ago, but has pretty much floundered since then. Nothing's really been done that's harder than V5/V6 or 5.11.

If we put up any "mixed" lines it will probably to save money on hangers and wear and tear on drill bits lol

Define "pure".
What do you do when you find a 200' pitch with 2 70' cracks connected by a 60' slab that has a couple chicken heads on it?
Risk the 120' on gear for the sake of a pure trad ascent? Hand drill a couple of bolts from stances to make it a reasonable yet heady mixed lead? Bolt the shit out of it so every beater in town can feel safe?

Good point. I would say if it has chicken heads which is a lot of how Tuolumne Meadows is it would still go as a safe and pure trad route. I have climbed routes such as Candy Land at the Phantom Spires that your only pro is slinging huge knobs. I would say chicken heads would make it safe.

I guess I am referencing single pitch of lets say 100'. There is 10 to 15 ft' of crack in the middle so the FA decided to make it a mixed route instead of putting one or two bolts in to make it consistent.

I would say each style of climbing has a specific way. I would classify free climbing into two main categories, Trad and Sport. Pure in a sport climbers mind would mean to make it to the top using only quickdraws I guess? Trad pure would be getting to the top only using pro?

I dont know if there is a pure way acutally put up a route, thats what im trying to decide.

If you put up a sport climb and skip a bolt on the send does that mean its not pure?

Its about minimalism. Bolting should only be done when there is no other option to protect the climb. Whether it is because of the rock, lack of placement, and I guess more recent the difficulty of the climb. There are certain areas where most everything is just sport because that is the nature of the area. Many walls at the Red River Gorge would protect with gear and the bolting could be kept to a minimum, but that is not the Red's style. Ultimately its about protecting the resource, and trad for the most part does that the best.

I happen to like mixed lines. It often reduces the amount of gear you have to carry and quite often the crux is the spot with the bolt.

TomCaldwell wrote:Its about minimalism. Bolting should only be done when there is no other option to protect the climb. Whether it is because of the rock, lack of placement, and I guess more recent the difficulty of the climb. There are certain areas where most everything is just sport because that is the nature of the area. Many walls at the Red River Gorge would protect with gear and the bolting could be kept to a minimum, but that is not the Red's style. Ultimately its about protecting the resource, and trad for the most part does that the best. I happen to like mixed lines. It often reduces the amount of gear you have to carry and quite often the crux is the spot with the bolt.

Mixed routes often say things such as, 8 bolts, gear to 4". Does it feel annoying to anyone else to face climb hard routes with a rack to 4 that your using maybe two pieces on?

To me it boils down to a few simple things: don't bolt cracks. Use natural pro whenever possible (reasonable?). Don't create artificial runouts on rappel. Don't bolt ladder your way up something you can't climb. The rock dictates the way. Don't be a tard.

If the weight of the rack makes you fall it's time to do pull-ups, you're climbing at your limit.

Boissal wrote:To me it boils down to a few simple things: don't bolt cracks. Use natural pro whenever possible (reasonable?). Don't create artificial runouts on rappel. Don't bolt ladder your way up something you can't climb. The rock dictates the way. Don't be a tard. If the weight of the rack makes you fall it's time to do pull-ups, you're climbing at your limit.

I agree about the weight. Im more referencing the point of sport or what seems to be. To climb at your max ability hence lighter red point and onsight ropes. Light quick draws, and only what you need. Not an additional 10 to 20 pounds of gear.

So mixed climbing is a style on its own then, additional to Sport and Trad. Its a way of life for some? So if a area is mixed all the routes should be mixed?

trying hard wrote: Mixed routes often say things such as, 8 bolts, gear to 4". Does it feel annoying to anyone else to face climb hard routes with a rack to 4 that your using maybe two pieces on?

Since you are talking about single pitch climbs, in most cases you should be able to see what other gear you need. In those cases you can carry just a few pieces. I have never minded carrying a little gear up a climb. There are ways to cover almost an entire rack with just a few light pieces (tricams). I think Boissal is right on.

There are climbs here in N.C. which protect only with bolts but are still considered trad climbs. Visit Stone Mountain.

Mixed is not mixed, its trad. If an area is all mixed, it is still up to the FA'er to decide how to put the route up. If the FA'er goes outside of the realm of acceptance, it may get chopped.

A real climber uses natural protection whenever possible. Why? Because the point of climbing is to use your resources and ability to safely make it to the top. If you can't do that on a route you should back off and try something else.

Sometimes bolts are necessary as there is zero chance of pro and the terrain is much too overhanging to set a TR (The Red) or perhaps it's void of pro and it's just not possible to get to the top to set TR.

Throwing a bolt in on a mixed climb is a judgement call. I say if the climb can be done or has been without the bolt don't bolt it.

Nick Rhoads wrote:A real climber uses natural protection whenever possible. Why? Because the point of climbing is to use your resources and ability to safely make it to the top. If you can't do that on a route you should back off and try something else. Sometimes bolts are necessary as there is zero chance of pro and the terrain is much too overhanging to set a TR (The Red) or perhaps it's void of pro and it's just not possible to get to the top to set TR. Throwing a bolt in on a mixed climb is a judgement call. I say if the climb can be done or has been without the bolt don't bolt it.

So as the FA team if I decide to put up a route that could be pure if I run it out, I should consider other people climbing it and make it safer? Or send it pure style with out the bolt?

If its a sport climb and a crack is consuming about 10 ft of my 100 ft sport pitch, I should bolt it through the crack to make others feel safer and allow more people to climb the route?

I think that I disagree with many of the posters above me. In the case of a short section of slab between 2 cracks, making a mixed lead with a few bolts seems perfectly in order. However, if the climb is in a sport area, and there is a 90' face with a spot for a cam or 2 right in the middle, i think it would be acceptable to bolt the crack. Nothing is gained by leaving 2 hangers off of a wall that already has 194 on it. But, at the same time, if the first ascent party want to leave the section unbolted, that would be ok with me, too. If I don't want to carry gear, I'll just climb the next one over.

John Wilder wrote:i thought mixed climbing was ice/rock climbing with ice axes? just because a trad route has a fucking bolt on it doesnt make it mixed. just like because a route is ENTIRELY bolted doesnt make it a sport route. holy fuck, have i been climbing long enough that people who dont know this have managed to actually change the definition of this?

I apologize if there is another word for what I am trying to understand. I used the word "mixed", as what I though to be an acceptable term for climbing that utilized both trad and sport climbing in the same pitch. I understand mixed climbing as other forms as well such as styles of ice climbing or alpine. Is there another word for this?

I guess my question is what is the reason for bolting a single pitch climb? Is it just because of the feeling that a climb "doesn't count" unless done on lead?

I only ask because in Maryland most of our climbing is toprope and trad, and most people wishing to do serious sport climbing drive at least 4 hours for weekend trips to more major areas. As I understand it, the reason for the lack of bolts is primarily that the majority of our climbs are single-pitch and have plenty of natural anchor options on top. I personally agree with the anti-bolting sentiment in our area, though I could see exceptions made for bolt anchors if excessive damage were being caused to the trees and there were no other options available like slinging boulders or building gear anchors.

Regarding whether the FA party needs to make accommodations to future climbers, I think a happy medium should be found. To me a bolt near a crack is as unnecessary as chipping in extra face holds around the crack for people who don't know how to jam. But by all means it should be noted in the documentation of the climb that there is no bolt for that section.

TomCaldwell wrote: Mixed is not mixed, its trad. If an area is all mixed, it is still up to the FA'er to decide how to put the route up. If the FA'er goes outside of the realm of acceptance, it may get chopped.

What is acceptable from the other perspective resulting in retro bolting. What is acceptable at a wall that is a fun sport area and most cracks have been bolted, or they are 100 % Trad? Would you retro bolt a sport climb the FA team decided to leave the middle of the climb that is crack un bolted to follow the trend?

So how do you constitute what is right in regard to chopping a route, or adding a bolt?

Robin Close wrote: Regarding whether the FA party needs to make accommodations to future climbers, I think a happy medium should be found. To me a bolt near a crack is as unnecessary as chipping in extra face holds around the crack for people who don't know how to jam. But by all means it should be noted in the documentation of the climb that there is no bolt for that section.

I really like this comment, and agree about a happy medium. What are some things to consider when putting up routes? What is an appropriate happy medium, one that both sides can agree on? Is it even possible to have a happy medium?

Thank you to all so far who have expanded my understanding on this subject!

Robin Close wrote:I guess my question is what is the reason for bolting a single pitch climb? As I understand it, the reason for the lack of bolts is primarily that the majority of our climbs are single-pitch and have plenty of natural anchor options on top.

Most sport areas do not have accessible top anchors. Land ownership, rugged or dangerous terrain, cliffs that are too tall to TR, climbs that are too steep to TR, etc.

trying hard,
I'm a new climber as well. I've only been at this a little over two years and I definitely understand your curiosity and questions. I got into doing some reading about this stuff as well and asking friends their opinions. I think gradually I'm letting these ethics and style questions "settle into my bones." Sounds weird but what I mean is by climbing enough and climbing different things I think I'm developing a sense of my own personal ethics and style. If you're thinking about developing a route or area then its really about your own ethics and style and how they fit into your climbing community's.

I thought I would freak out the first time I saw a piton get placed. In the end it didn't bother me one way or the other. Someday if I get serious enough about alpine or ice climbing I may pick up a couple myself. I went to an area a friend was thinking about developing and got really annoyed when somebody else suggested a bolt be placed. We were toproping it after all and I felt like some rides have a cost of admission. Nut up or climb on TR or climb somewhere else. I've also clipped bolts on slabs and "mixed" routes like you're suggesting and been super happy to see them. I've clipped fixed gear and been glad to see it deep there in a crack and I've also been pissed to be staring up at a purple linkcam fixed and sticking out of one of my favorite crags.

I think asking questions and thinking about this stuff is great but I also think you gotta give it time to sink in. What's your gut say about these routes you wanna develop?

trying hard wrote: What is acceptable from the other perspective resulting in retro bolting. What is acceptable at a wall that is a fun sport area and most cracks have been bolted, or they are 100 % Trad? Would you retro bolt a sport climb the FA team decided to leave the middle of the climb that is crack un bolted to follow the trend? So how do you constitute what is right in regard to chopping a route, or adding a bolt?

Those are area specific questions that I can't answer. You should ask other FA'ers from the same wall or respected locals that could get you those gray area answers to your questions. Retro bolting should never be done without FA permission or without some sort of consensus from the local community (that doesn't include a bunch of your buddies).

I'm with John Wilder's post above. I think you are misusing the term trad. There are plenty of trad routes that have bolts. The big difference between sport and trad is the former can be rap bolted and the latter is from the ground up. Some routes that are bolted from the ground up on lead are just plain bold, burly, and mind blowing. The Paul Crawford route Telesis @ Sugarloaf is a great example.(it has been retrobolted) Climb it and think about doing it with two or three bolts. Then think about putting those bolts in on lead. Amazing.