Knot questions

In the book Rock Climbing by Craig Luebben, he describes the use of a overhand knot for connecting two ropes for top-rope/belay/rappel applications. Why doesn't the pull of the rope separate or roll this knot?

Is the overhand knot as good as a fisherman's knot for making a loop?

Why is the water knot only used for webbing? Can a water knot be used to make a loop from rope or cord?

Finally, any good books or web resources for more in depth knot information?

Thanks, Chris

Hey Chris:

Avery put a link regarding some info about the flat overhand knot that you are thinking about:

xmission.com/~tmoyer/testin…

I use it for rappelling frequently. It is strong enough to hold the strands together and has a flat profile so as not to become stuck (ergo, the flat overhand). This knot is to be tied, dressed, & set properly!!

(well, every other knot does also, but I think emphasis on setting this knot is paramount)

I use both the flat overhand & double fishermans for making a loop in accessory cord. The double fishermans is a more solid knot however it is very difficult to untie once weighted.

The water knot, yes for webbing, no for cord. I think we've discussed something on this site about the tails used in a water knot, I think I eyeball mine at 4-6 inches of tails.

Books? I dunno, the Mountaineers Books seem to have what I look for in application.

The overhand knot scares me a bit. My partner uses it frequently however it can me dangerous. After tying the knot pull the tails back toward the strand they originated from then pull the two ropes. You may not pull them all the way through but you will see what I'm saying. The rope slips and with the right conditions I've managed to have it works its way all the way loose. A bit of a mistake could be your life. If the stopper knots are are tied well you will probobly be ok if something were to happen but I prefer to eleminate all chances.

Some relevant discussion here

The overhand, when used for rapping, must be used with long tails. I think 9-12 inches is pretty standard. This way, any inverting will not make the knot come undone.

I don't know of any other climbing application in which an overhand knot is appropriate.

ropadop wrote:In the book Rock Climbing by Craig Luebben, he describes the use of a overhand knot for connecting two ropes for top-rope/belay/rappel applications.

ropadop: Does Craig really mention using this for top roping or belaying? I suspect he only recommends it for rappeling... IMO, with proper usage (and you really do need to understand it well) it's a fine knot for rappelling, but not those other things.

That being said, I usually use the triple-fisherman's unless there is chance it'll get caught up on a major edge (i.e. anchors are set back). Then I use the EDK (I think I like calling it that).

Another thing i've seen to prevent EDK from inverting is to tie an overhand knot on one of the tails right up tight to the EDK that prevents it from rolling.

Actually, it is used only in the rappeling portion of the book, and with long tails, and a stopper on one tail. He specifically mentions that it's main advantage over other knots is the ability to pass over edges. Btw, it is good book on the basics.

I agree with what everyone else has said, the Euro Death Knot (a.k.a. EDK or the overhand for rappel) is a sweet knot that when left with enough of a tail (10in) will roll over and lay flat enabling easy rope pulling and less chance of a rope snag than other alternatives for rappelling.

Use a butterfly knot instead. It doesn't roll, has a low profile, and is relatively easy to untie after being weighted.

The XMission.com data is impressive/enlightening/scary depending on your point of view. It seems that the EDK can be completely satisfactory, but is a bit of a ticking time bomb. Its clearly not as strong as the competition (but certainly "strong enough" for rappeling), and the only advantage is that its less likely to get stuck on the pull. Personnally, I used to get stuck knots frequently when I was a beginner. With a bit of awareness, I haven't had a stuck rappel rope since 2001, so to me, the advantages of the EDK do not outweigh the risks.

I'd really like to see some data on how various knots perform with two ropes of significantly different diameters. I used to routinely carry a 6mm or 7mm rap line that would be tied to my 10.2/10.5/11mm lead rope. I was always a bit worried about the knots in these cases, but obviously I never had any problems.

Monomaniac wrote:With a bit of awareness, I haven't had a stuck rappel rope since 2001, so to me, the advantages of the EDK do not outweigh the risks.

Some other advantages are that it is very easy to untie after use, and, easy to inspect too.

I did some testing in the home lab awhile back on the EDK.

mtncommunity.org/dc/dcboard…;forum=101&topic_id=11013&mesg_id=11013&page=

I routinely use the EDK for tying together a 9.4mm dynamic rope and a 6mm static. Well dressed and tensioned of course. Never seen it move or had an issue with it. YMMV.

Cheers.

I've never understood the fascination with the EDK. In 20 years of climbing I've only gotten a rope stuck on rappel once or twice, and it has never had anything to do with the profile of the knot. Maybe there are climbing areas I haven't visited where this becomes paramount, but I've been a lot of places and haven't needed it yet.

A retraced Fig 8 (for ropes the same size) or a Sheet Bend (for ropes of different size) have served me well over the years. I always include back-up knots on either side of these knots. They may be unnecessary on the Fig 8, but are a good idea on the Sheet Bend. Neither of these is difficult to untie after rappelling, and they are strong and stable. The behavior of the EDK is far too unpredictable for me to use it to gain some "smooth profile" that is not really necessary.

Rich Farnham wrote:A retraced Fig 8 (for ropes the same size) or a Sheet Bend (for ropes of different size) have served me well over the years.

Sheet Bend looks scary to me, but, mostly out of extreme ignorance.

I like the Flemish Bend. If it weren't for my use of the EDK, I'd probably just use it solely.

Another nice thing about the EDK, you can perform it fairly easy with a broken hand (one handed).

Nice to have something so simple in the toolbox as sometimes, it seems, rappelling occurs at the end of the day, when tired, or, at the tail end of an epic with weather, etc. One less thing to have to concentrate hard on is nice.

I don't stick ropes very often, but, I did in Red Rocks earlier this season. Rappel knot had nothing to do with it, though. But, pull was nice and smooth and I did get my retrieval cord (and the EDK knot) all the way back to the belay before the other rope got stuck (rope end fell into a small block grove with a single twist).

I find its behavior totally predictable (ie, if I leave some tails and tension it, it works every time and unties easily).

So, I guess the biggest appeal to me is the EDK's simplicity. Which is maybe what bugs some folks about it?

Brian, I think the problem is the perception the knot unties itself. Which it will if it's not dressed & set properly. Otherwise, it rolls out under forces which are far greater than could be generated on a rap & does not untie itself.

The tails? I've never had one roll on me, though I do keep them about a foot long and overhand one strand against the main knot. But, like I said, I've never had one roll on a rap (that includes rapping with multiple people, one right after the other, totally free hanging)

I'd use a double sheet bend, fabulous knot for high strength and much much easier than a double fishermans to untie.

The double (or triple) sheet bend isn't a knot I've seen many (any?) people use climbing, but its commmon in sailing.

I've used it for connecting tow ropes, when towing large boats, i.e., large dynamic loads. Its stable, and relatively flat and easy to untie. I'd have no hesitation to use it for rap-ing.

Its main advantage is that its stable when used to join different diameter ropes.

BrettPierce wrote:Use a butterfly knot instead. It doesn't roll, has a low profile, and is relatively easy to untie after being weighted.

How do you join two ropes with a butterfly knot? Run the two ropes together and tie this knot?

Ahhh, the old Euro Death Knot. When climbing, I use it for rappeling. But I agree with others that you need plenty of tail (10-12 inches).

In regards to the Double Sheet Bend I've never used it (or seen it used) for climbing, but we use it a lot in SAR (we saftey the ends). It is a great knot for tying two ropes together and then putting an extremely heavy weight on (a litter and four attendees). It can be easily untied afterewards unlike a Double Fishermans.

ropadop - There is a knot chapter in "Freedom of the Hills". I found this extremely helpful when learning how to tie different knots. I've since scaled it down to just a handful while climbing, but it is valuable to know other knots if needed.

brenta wrote: How do you join two ropes with a butterfly knot? Run the two ropes together and tie this knot?

Tie an overhand knot at the very end of your ropes to connect them (this just makes tying the knot easier, but you can do it without this step) and then tie the knot. I don't use the wrap it around your hand method that the video shows. Instead, I twist the rope twice to create two loops that look like a figure 8 (but it's not), and then I put the top loop below the bottom of the bottom loop and then put it through the bottom loop.

This is a terrible description. Maybe somebody can do a better job.

The only disadvantage to this knot is learning how to tie it. Once you know how, it is minimally harder to tie than the overhand. But this knot is safer and has all of the other advantages of the EDK.

BrettPierce wrote:This is a terrible description. Maybe somebody can do a better job.

No, I think I got it. Thanks! I use a double overhand to join rappel ropes; it has the advantages of the single overhand, but not the drawbacks.

BrettPierce wrote: Tie an overhand knot at the very end of your ropes to connect them (this just makes tying the knot easier, but you can do it without this step) and then tie the knot. I don't use the wrap it around your hand method that the video shows. Instead, I twist the rope twice to create two loops that look like a figure 8 (but it's not), and then I put the top loop below the bottom of the bottom loop and then put it through the bottom loop. This is a terrible description. Maybe somebody can do a better job.

Nah, that's pretty good! Yeah, you take the two strands and bend them around from behind the crossed rope loops, then and bring them around in front and through the bottom loop. I like this better than the hand wrap method too.

BrettPierce wrote: But this knot is safer and has all of the other advantages of the EDK.

Safer based on what? (not asking to be a dink, just, what data/info shows is safer?)

If you have to pull the knot over abrasive terrain, it does put wear and tear on the rope more, methinks, as one of the diagonally oriented bottom strands is more prone to sticking out and sucking up all the friction that the rope "sees". The EDK more keeps the main rope strands in line. Bigger chance of wearing a hole in your rope sheath, perhaps...

Also, might be harder to tie one handed. Also, might be harder to tell if its tied properly. Try it with frozen ropes, might be tougher to tie, when your tired, and its dark...

Is easy to untie!

Strength-wise, its about equal?

How does it do with ropes of different diameters?

Anyone have any test data related to tying two ropes together with a butterfly?

So, you tie an otherhand knot to start the process? In my world, at that point, you'd be done (ha ha).

Cheers.