Response to Flash Foxy & Outside Magazine Article

(Quote function not working: Daniel Evans:) So when I reference the attire that women wear to the gym do not attack me for me sexist, I'm simply being realistic. /quote>

Well in your view, as you've reiterated several times, sexism is realistic, so perhaps you're being both.

I sense I've reached the point where I have nothing new to add and can't make my perspective any clearer, so I'm going to bow out. I just want to leave a final thought for everyone on this thread, and everyone reading it.

In the last hour, I have received several emails from other women on this site. This has happened just about every time I participate in any similar conversations on here. These emails are along the lines of thanking me for speaking out, letting me know that my words are appreciated, encouraging me to continue to do so - from women who are unable or unwilling for reasons of their own to speak up themselves.

To those women - I encourage you to speak out if you are ever so moved, and I support your right to stay quiet as well. For me, just ONE of your emails is worth a thousand from men calling me a bitch and a cunt and a man-hating slut who ought to be raped. However, being called those things is certainly not fun and I can absolutely relate to the impulse to avoid the spotlight and the "attention" it brings. So thank you for your words, I DO find them very encouraging, and it is partly for you that I will continue to share my thoughts in conversations such as these - though to be clear I do not claim to speak for anyone but myself.

To the men here - I want you all to know that for every woman willing to speak up, please remember there may be a dozen or a hundred more who are staying quiet, but we are still here - listening, and paying attention, and learning what our climbing community thinks of us. THANK YOU to the men who are supportive, encouraging, willing to stand up for us, or even just willing to listen with an open mind. It means the world to us, thank you. And to all the men on both sides of the issue - remember we're all vetting our potential future climbing partners. ;)

Thanks as always for the interesting discussion, take care all.

Respect is earned, not demanded. Thats how men get it at least.

Em Cos, "For me, just ONE of your emails is worth a thousand from men calling me a bitch and a cunt and a man-hating slut who ought to be raped."

Those are bold words. I cant imagine anyone in this climbing community saying them. If you have proof share a screenshot. Otherwise I recommend you calibrate your accusations.

grog m wrote:Respect is earned, not demanded. Thats how men get it at least. Em Cos, "For me, just ONE of your emails is worth a thousand from men calling me a bitch and a cunt and a man-hating slut who ought to be raped." Those are bold words. I cant imagine anyone in this climbing community saying them. If you have proof share a screenshot. Otherwise I recommend you calibrate your accusations.

I named no names and made no accusations. I also do not keep scrapbooks of garbage, and do not require the approval or respect of anyone not interested in giving it.
In all sincerity, I'm happy for you that those types of words are outside the realm of your experience and your imagination. Some of us live in a different reality.

grog m wrote:Respect is earned, not demanded. Thats how men get it at least.

You earn the respect of what's associated w/ being a 'man' (as opposed to being a 'boy'). But you should expect and extend respect between fellow human beings.

Say a fella goes out fishing in a lake. Let's say that fella spends a lot of money on some really tasty bait. This bait is so good it's called lulu lemon bait. Our fella's goal is to catch the biggest and best largemouth bass in the lake. However, in the process of trying to catch those bass, our fella reels in several unwanted carp. The carp are kind of annoying in that they're ugly and it takes time to get rid of them. Since he doesn't like them, our fella refers to those carp as "creepy."

With that really tasty bait, should our fella be shocked that he's also reeling in carp? Should he write an article to a fishing magazine complaining about the problems with the lake? After all, there sure are a lot of carp in that lake.

Your response is a pretty good example of A) classic male defensiveness and lack of willingness to admit that you are part of the problem of gender inequality, and B) someone who clearly hasn't had any actual training in social justice and equality.

Trying to pass this off as poor journalism by copying and pasting definitions from high school statistics and a dictionary is crap.

Do us all a favor and ask yourself, as a middle age white man who more than likely doesn't fit into a single minority identity, do you really have the right to tell women that they should feel otherwise?

NRobl wrote:Say a fella goes out fishing in a lake. Let's say that fella spends a lot of money on some really tasty bait. This bait is so good it's called lulu lemon bait. Our fella's goal is to catch the biggest and best largemouth bass in the lake. However, in the process of trying to catch those bass, our fella reels in several unwanted carp. The carp are kind of annoying in that they're ugly and it takes time to get rid of them. Since he doesn't like them, our fella refers to those carp as "creepy." With that really tasty bait, should our fella be shocked that he's also reeling in carp? Should he write an article to a fishing magazine complaining about the problems with the lake? After all, there sure are a lot of carp in that lake.

Maybe he should. Carp are usually an invasive and pretty obnoxious fish.

The mindset of your comment is also the reason that articles like the one in question need to be written. That is super creepy.

Shit. Our fella hooked another carp.

I am one of those women who will not waste my time volunteering an opinion for such article and do consider it macroaggression them wasting paper on this nonsense opinion. Incompetent and useless, only purpose is to get a rise out of audience on the never ending gender drama. Even if problem exists it is not a huge one, and the best evidence of that are the rising numbers of women visiting climbing gyms now. There are all kinds of human behaviors that I dislike, but climbing gyms are the friendliest and most liberating places for females of all ages. And I find it funny that a girl who can stand 10' above the bolt can't summon enough courage to tell someone their advice is not necessary.
One request to both genders - if you are on a date and would like to flirt for a while - step away from the rope/wall and let the rest of us do the climb please, come back when you ready to devote at least some of your attention to the holds.

A couple dinky corrections: it's "that being said", not "been said". Just sayin'.

Sexual harassment, legally, is not based on gender. "Typically, female..." is, surprisingly, not the case as much as most assume. (Have to sit through annual harassment trainings at work).

That said, gyms are social places, and it is reasonable to expect, well, some socializing. Reasonable enough. But, unwanted is defined by the person receiving, not the one dishing it out. You could choose to climb in the nude, and flap it in my face, but that doesn't give me any additional freedom to behave badly myself, except with mutual consent, of course. And, don't presume to speak for someone else, or dictate the right or wrongness of their reactions to your actions.

But gents, what has happened on mp are guys, sometimes, behaving like seventh graders in some of these threads. Know what? I've got a sense of humor, and so what? Sometimes I've even chosen to banter back.

What you might want to actually consider, my great, kind, thoughtful guy friends, are the subtle stuff you might not even see, that us little ladies still get too often.

For example, and a pet peeve of mine for sure, pretty much every single thread ever posted on "heavy climber, light belayer" is posted by heavy dude asking how his petite lady friend should belay him. Presumably so he can then instruct her clueless little self. My response in those threads? Uhhh, maybe ASK HER what she has in mind, since she probably has a lot more experience belaying a heavier climber?

LOL!

For what it's worth, in my opinion, climbing is much more equal across a whole lot of lines, not just gender, than anything else I know of. Part of what is hugely fun about it!

Jake Jones wrote: I see what you're saying Ted. I'd be careful with the assertion that just because the majority is saying something that it lends more validity. There are plenty of instances throughout history where the "majority" supported something atrocious. I don't think that's the case here, but it is certainly a slippery slope.

I'm actually not saying that, and totally agree that majority opinion does not in any way validate a claim (lots of people supported slavery back in the day). I'm simply pointing out that the fact that a majority of MPers defended the article, which is ironic being that the article is claiming that a lot of climbers are misogynists/sexist.

As far as the microaggression thing...I think Marc hit it on the head when he said "you don't get to decide how others feel." The term is used to describe thinly veiled, but persistent acts of sexism. It's not the same as slapping a woman's ass or grabbing a guy's crotch, but hints at an undercurrent of resentment and misogyny. It's kind of like why people only asked to see the birth certificate of the first black president...you can't be overtly racist/sexist, so you find little ways of letting out your rage.

Em Cos - thanks for taking the time to engage with patience and wit with a position (much repeated) that must have burned.

I grew up in a very racist, sexist, homophobic society (The World, 1970s) and absorbed all the bullshit of the time (and some special stuff local to my home country). I'm smart and (eventually) well travelled and well read, so I thought I was doing okay on the liberal tolerance stakes. But the older I get and the more I LISTEN to other people's experiences, rather than projecting my thoughts about what they should feel, I realize I've still got a lot to learn. So when I get offended / irritated by terms like "microaggression" I'm learning its better to question why the term irritates me, why it was coined, and think on it a bit.

You shouldn't have to be a spear-carrier for the revolution - but good on you for putting yourself out there. I'm grateful to several people in my life who've nudged me towards thinking differently about race, religion, gender and generally Not Being A Dick.

I'd like to chime in as one of the folks who sent Em an email thanking her for devoting her energy to being an educator and advocate in these situations. I typically don't comment because 1) I"m not big on social media and 2) It is exhausting and disheartening to regularly explain to (mostly) men why I, and many women, rarely feel relaxed in this world. I don't speak for all women, but I speak for myself (which is enough), and for almost every woman I've ever spoken with about these issues.

Many well articulated responses have already been made, and it's encouraging to see those responses. One thing that is striking to me is how common it is for men to blow off the experiences of women because "they wouldn't be offended if someone said/did it to them." I recently had this exact conversation with a climbing partner regarding my request that he not make comments about my body, positive or negative, joking or not.

What's tricky is that the events that make up an overall feeling of being harassed in this world are often insidious. You can point to any single event and say, "what's the harm? why is that a big deal?"and maybe someone won't have a clear answer for you. The problem is that it ends up being years of being treated as though as a woman you are there for men to enjoy as they choose. Many men will choose to enjoy me by taking a look up and down as I walk by. Some may make a lewd comment and see if they can get a response. Some may become more aggressive, leading up to sexual violence. We are probably all agreed that sexual violence is not ok. What many people on this forum are trying to communicate is that this assumed "right" to ogle, flirt with, and generally "enjoy" women is not a given right.

Using what women are wearing as an excuse for this is so so messed up, both because it is the same argument often used to blame victims of sexual violence, but also because I'm guessing as grown humans with highly evolved pre-frontal cortices, most people have the capacity to inhibit urges to creepily stare and comment. Just like we inhibit all sorts of other socially destructive behaviors. My responses to my male friends when we have these discussions is that yes, it's normal to notice people you think are attractive but because of these cultural issues, I'm asking you to be thoughtful about where you go from there.

The long standing power inequalities between men and women in our culture make it so that even if some women do not feel threatened by these behaviors (and that is their experience), many others do. And it's tough sometimes for men to hear that what they thought was always "harmless" actually may be causing some harm and needs to be re-thought. I really appreciate the folks on this site and in my life who are willing to participate in that reflection.

tl,dr:
Thanks to the positive responses on this thread. Hearing the experiences of women, especially related to unwanted attention, is important and I hope more people are hearing them. Sometimes it's uncomfortable to hear those experiences, especially if we feel we are getting called out. I don't hate on men for doing what our culture teaches them to do. But I articulate, repeatedly, that our culture is pretty darn toxic and we all have to unlearn some of what we've been taught.

Daniel Evans wrote:However from the beginning, your article basically demonizes male climbers and does nothing to make us inclined to stand behind your movement in any way.

Not I... I definitely didn't feel demonized, and my emotional response to the article was something along the lines of "Shit, I hope I'm not being discriminatory at the gym (or elsewhere). I'll take this as a cue to listen and learn more about the issues."

Did you know that according to the 1995-1996 National Violence Against Women Survey, 17.6% of women in the U.S. will be the victim of attempted or successful rape within their lifetime? I didn't, until -- spurred by the Outside / Flash Foxy piece -- I read up on the concept of Shrödinger's Rapist.

One article on the subject does a nice job of illustrating a particular problem with unwanted advances, and coincidentally speaks to why a man "not getting the message" may mean much more than just being an annoying person (expanding on what Jake Jones said earlier):

"So if you speak to a woman who is otherwise occupied, you’re sending a subtle message. It is that your desire to interact trumps her right to be left alone. If you pursue a conversation when she’s tried to cut it off, you send a message. It is that your desire to speak trumps her right to be left alone. And each of those messages indicates that you believe your desires are a legitimate reason to override her rights."

Yes, if someone does that to a man, it can send the same message: the "doer's" desires override the "receiver's" desires. But within the context of rape culture and when the "doer" is a man, this is a much bigger problem for a woman than it is for a man.

Daniel Evans wrote:I then went on to add that we as a community have acknowledged this fact and are doing everything within our power to improve where we possibly can.

Doesn't "everything within our power" include refraining from telling women that it's petty to be concerned about men staring at their sports bras, and listening to what they're saying in general?

Kudos to Em and everyone else speaking out against this sexist bullshit.

Mr Evans, do you think there's a difference polling a group of (majority women) climbers on their experiences with sexism vs. polling a group of NRA members on their opinions about gun policy? Why the selection bias might be more of an issue in the latter case than the former?

Do you write lots of rebuttal letters of popular journalism that features non-rigorous polling, or was this your first? If it was your first, what made you compelled to write the letter? What struck such a nerve in this article in particular?

vwall wrote:The problem is that it ends up being years of being treated as though as a woman you are there for men to enjoy as they choose. ... The long standing power inequalities between men and women in our culture make it so that even if some women do not feel threatened by these behaviors (and that is their experience), many others do. And it's tough sometimes for men to hear that what they thought was always "harmless" actually may be causing some harm and needs to be re-thought.

Thanks for posting, vwall.

It's really encouraging to see pages of positive responses after the echo chamber on the first page.

Jake Jones wrote: The article is making that point, not me. My point is that even if the article is biased, which it is your assertion that it is (and it may be, after all, I don't profess to know what percentage of women are actually harassed at every gym nationwide, nor will I attempt to draw a clear line between what is harassment with regard to creepily drooling for a long stare and continuous glances) what harm will it actually do to men? Virtually none. I agree that glancing at someone that you find attractive isn't necessarily harassment. However, let's say that a guy has first handily spotted a woman when it was unsolicited, then attempted to give her beta, which she politely declined, then asked her out, to which she again politely rejected. At that point, are continuous glances and stares harassment? Sure might feel like it to the woman. Is it then your position that she had no right to complain or feel uncomfortable because the onus was on her to make it clear that the advances were unwanted in no uncertain terms- because he was too socially inept to pick up on her cues? I use this detailed example because I've actually seen it happen. I've seen numerous scenarios like this. And you know what I don't think? "She's blowing it out of proportion". All I can think is that if that were my daughter or girlfriend, I'd want to choke the life out of that sack of shit. You're addressing the inaccuracy and the perceived hyperbole without considering why it might be there in the first place. Or at least that's what it seems like. That's the point I'm trying to make. So yes, a few glances are relatively harmless, but to many women it's indicative of or a precursor to harassment. Or, you could prove us all wrong and do your own unbiased survey of women. You might be surprised with the results.

IF you saw this action happen why on earth did you not step in and tell the dude to back off?

C'mon 10 pages!

I am assuming most women if they are intelligent know that if they dress a certain way will attract most guy's attention.

So unless the doctors are going to get on some meds that they force all guys to take it isn't likely going to change, so that means in an unpolitically correct fashion that if you dress like a slut expect to get looked at like a slut.

I am sure there are plenty of cases where women are doing nothing to get attention and you have those tools that keeping going at them but at the same time going and getting wasted with some guy so you don't know which was is up and than calling rape when you wake up in their bed is also not rape imo (unless you can prove he was slipping stuff in your drank without you know of course, but still people generally know when they should stop drinking).

SwabianAmi wrote:we've got sexism, then somehow the NRA got involved.....Just waiting for Godwin's law to come into play. Should be any moment now

Hitler!
You're welcome.