Grigri gym accident, 40' to the floor

That photo of Daila Ojeda is very telling.

There is little wrong with gripping the climbers side very, very firmly. It will do nothing as long as the hand travels with the rope as it is not changing the rate of acceleration of the rope, and hence the chances of the cam operating. Note how high her hand is. I doubt she was belaying with it this high. It has simply travelled up with the rope. And hence, as the photo shows, the cam has engaged.

If there is a problem with grabbing the climber's rope it is grabbing it and then flighting it with your bicep.

Old lady H wrote: Even if the jump is before the rope is tensioned, at the start of the fall???

Don't jump early!

David Coley wrote:That photo of Daila Ojeda is very telling. There is little wrong with gripping the climbers side very, very firmly. It will do nothing as long as the hand travels with the rope as it is not changing the rate of acceleration of the rope, and hence the chances of the cam operating. Note how high her hand is. I doubt she was belaying with it this high. It has simply travelled up with the rope. And hence, as the photo shows, the cam has engaged. If there is a problem with grabbing the climber's rope it is grabbing it and then flighting it with your bicep.

That seems an accurate assessment.

If you left hand is above the device during a catch and lift then it is natural to grip firmly and use this as a support to you now elevated torso. As long as your device has locks this doesn't result in any rope burns or issues.

I'm expecting a fall and not movement then I would usually deliberately have TWO hands on the brake rope. But any unexpected fall is often going to have you braking with one hand.

Bringing you hand above the belay device surely is breaking belaying rules 101.

Gunkiemike wrote: Don't jump early!

Jumping at the right time can be tricky. Falls happen in the blink of an eye. Even when the leader is under the rope, the rope may have to stretch before the link between you and the leader is tight and solid, THEN, your dead weight factors in. If your leader is really aggressive and climbing high above their protection, even skipping a bolt to overcome a crux to the next best hold or creating a safer situation in the case that they fall, they swing into a void beneath a roof, you may be watching them fall for a substantial amount of time before you feel that surreal sensation of the rope pulling tight on you--then jump! So much fun to be a part of that dynamic system!

Factors in this type of situation may contraindicate jumping, for concern of how close they'll come to the ground, or what kinda obstacles may be present that are threatening to the leader while in their path of falling; how much the rope will stretch--with a lot of rope fed out comes a lot of stretch.

The leader just climbs, and is in a different state of mind than the belayer. The belayer has a JOB. The rule of thumb is that we can only hit the ground or ledge once, then, lights out! The belayer may go home, or may be involved as another victim. Be calm and collected when policing each other. A newb is already under enough stress. They don't need to be made a ready and easy target for humiliation.

big mistake was keeping rope tight 40' up on a gym route. Sounds like you just had a really bad belayer and should've said something?

J-K +1. Lol

rgold wrote:That doesn't make sense to me---gripping the rope with the non-brake hand will keep it away from the device. I don't know the explanation, but I don't see how this could be it.

The mode of failure I am thinking of is like this...
1) The belayer has a firm grip on the brake strand, and also has grip (loose or tight) on the climber's strand.

2) The climber falls.

3) The belayer incorrectly reacts by trying to pull the climber's strand towards the belay device. Since there is no way they can actually hold the weight of the climber, the climber's strand slips through their hand, and their hand slides down the rope towards the device. Note: the brake strand is still held securely.

4) The belayer's left hand impacts the cam of the GriGri preventing it from engaging or disengaging it if it was already engaged. There is now no load on the biner attached to the GriGri (belay biner).

5) The rope is now zipping through the device and burning the belayer's left hand. the belayer continues pulling their left hand towards themselves and the device (preventing the cam from engaging). The rope is also slipping through the belayer's brake hand. No matter how much force they apply to the brake strand, the rope keeps zipping through the device.

6) Climber decks. Belayer receives burns to both hands.

I Haven't tried to reproduce this under full body weight yet. I'll try later tonight if I get a chance. I did play around a bit by anchoring the rope to a doorknob and leaning backwards. It seems like a possible mode of failure to me, but it's difficult to be sure without testing full body weight.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed. My goal with this post is to inform everyone to learn proper use of equipment and understand its flaws.

There is a lot of good information in this thread, unfortunately most is speculation. I do not have any evidence to prove what exactly happened, no cameras at the gym, and no creditable witness accounts. Its all speculative at this point.

Things that may have contributed to the incident.
Position of hands, before and during the fall.
Can the lead hand actually affect the cam.
Amount of slack prior to fall.
Belayers actual actions.
Is the Grigri defective, its serial number has been recalled.

I am going to be testing to see if I can uncover possible weaknesses/failures with the Grigri. One thing I recently learned is my partner still has his Grigri, he's planning on sending it to Petzl to replace under the recall, not until I do some testing. I will use this with the same 9.8mm rope that was used in the incident in my test. I will post my results in the next few days.

Dylan B wrote: This seems unlikely to me. I haven't used a grigri much, but disengaging the cam by an incidental strike on the meat of your hand seems implausible. When the cam is engaged, it takes a notable force to disengage it; that's why the lever is there. Try to open the cam just by pushing down on it when the line is weighted (perhaps with your climber only a foot or two off the padded gym floor). I bet it takes a concerted effort, not just an accidental bump.

You may be correct about the force required to disengage the cam. I'll test tonight if i get the chance. However, you are forgetting that the belayer's left hand could impact the cam before the cam has even locked up. This could happen if the belayer sees the climber slip, and reacts before the climber's weight comes onto the rope (think lead fall).

I agree that it seems unlikely, but it's the only failure mode i can think of that could occur despite the belayer having a strong grip on the brake strand. So it seems worth exploring.

Here's another theory to add to the mix, or at least another story of gri-gri belayer error to inform the discussion.

I think if you can't see your climber (or aren't watching attentively) it is possible to mistake the beginning of a small fall for upward climber movement if the belay is too tight. If you then feed slack (esp. when using the 'fast feed' cam defeating thumb grip) then A LOT of rope will slip through the device.

This happened to me years ago while I belayed a climber on the route technosurfing at Rumney. Climber was in the upper section, just before the chains, out of my line of sight. He had just clipped a bolt at his face so when he fell, (since I had minimal slack out) the rope initially moved pretty slowly compared to a lead fall above the bolt (when a sec or 2 of free fall would have occurred prior to the rope moving at my belay device).

I had thought he had been moving up (he was probably resting after clipping and pumped out) and he was clipping the chains, so I fed him slack just as he fell.

30ft of rope zipped through the device before I could pull the brake and engage the cam. Luckily he was high on the route, so I got to learn my lesson with no injuries to my partner.

TL;DR:
If you feed slack just as climber falls esp if you 'fast-feed', a lot of rope slips through.

Look if the belayer would have been using the Grigri correctly. ie: hands free

The climbers in the video and at the gym would have been OK...

just my $.02 worth.

Guy Keesee wrote:Look if the belayer would have been using the Grigri correctly. ie: hands free The climbers in the video and at the gym would have been OK... just my $.02 worth.

Please tell us you're being satirical.

most gri-gri incidents would be prevented if the belayer wasn't fiddlefucking with the gri

Marc801 wrote: Please tell us you're being satirical.

U need to ask?????

The Grigri is BEST when your sleeping while your partner is trying to get that A4 stack of pins to hold..... for a few hours, while you lie there in the nice warm sun and gently doze off to sleep sleep sleep........

..............

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

BAM the thing goes tight...and wakes you up!!!!!!!!!

5+ pages of this .... carry on

Guy Keesee wrote: U need to ask????? The Grigri is BEST when your sleeping while your partner is trying to get that A4 stack of pins to hold..... for a few hours, while you lie there in the nice warm sun and gently doze off to sleep sleep sleep........ .............. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BAM the thing goes tight...and wakes you up!!!!!!!!! 5+ pages of this .... carry on

Ha, I once mentioned that I've told a few n00bs to just let go of the damn thing if nothing else works and I'm about to go splat and got roasted by the forum safety patrol. I think it blew his mind.

;)

Eric Chabot wrote: 30ft of rope zipped through the device before I could pull the brake and engage the cam. Luckily he was high on the route, so I got to learn my lesson with no injuries to my partner.

The device dident relock as soon as you let go of the override? The thing about the GriGri is if the rope zips through (for whatever reason) and you let go of the cam, it is designed to relock. You can try it on rap easily. Just crank open the handle, go into a free fall for a few feet, then let go of the handle. The device will lock and you will stop. Similarly, if lowering someone on TR or lead, you can crank down on the handle to open the cam (or pinch it open), allow the climber to go into a short free fall, let go of the cam, and the device will relock instantly. I see noobs at the crag doing this crap all the time because they think it's funny to "drop" their girlfriend a few feet.

Old lady H wrote: Even if the jump is before the rope is tensioned, at the start of the fall??? My main problem the few hours I spent trying, was that I couldn't get rope through fast enough, without the grigri jamming. I'm really short, so I have to be on my toes and move pretty fast to keep up with my climbers. Because of that, both hands are active, so in my case, I will stick with the ATC, for now.

Keep the GriGri from moving with your brake hand. Then, it won't jam when you're feeding the rope out.

There's no need to tension the rope, unless you need to catch them above something because they're run out from their protection. I hate when my belayer is scared of seeing someone fall a long way and they keep my rope short. I can feel every little pull while I'm moving--ANNOYING. It should feel like free soloing to the leader.

20 kN wrote: The device dident relock as soon as you let go of the override? The thing about the GriGri is if the rope zips through (for whatever reason) and you let go of the cam, it is designed to relock. You can try it on rap easily. Just crank open the handle, go into a free fall for a few feet, then let go of the handle. The device will lock and you will stop. Similarly, if lowering someone on TR or lead, you can crank down on the handle to open the cam (or pinch it open), allow the climber to go into a short free fall, let go of the cam, and the device will relock instantly. I see noobs at the crag doing this crap all the time because they think it's funny to "drop" their girlfriend a few feet.

That lever ain't a fuckin' brake.

Medic741 wrote: big mistake was keeping rope tight 40' up on a gym route. Sounds like you just had a really bad belayer and should've said something? J-K +1. Lol

Correct

You can keep enough rope out to let your belayer fall halfway down the wall. Good, soft catch.

We need a reading comp coach on page 5 please, reading comp coach to page 5.

This thread is bound to make 20+ pages. We should of just thrown this all into the last 20+ page GriGri thread - make a sort of MP GriGri bible or whatever.

Then again, type GriGri into the search feature, and I'm almost sure every thread in the MP database will appear.