Adding Stars and Suggested Ratings: Beneficial or Not?

A good friend and I have been having a discussion about whether or not adding star-quality votes and suggested ratings is a benefit to the climbing community or a simply means for a person to show how many routes they climbed (e.g. I've climbed more routes than you!), to bash others or sandbag by downgrading routes, to show that they're the authority in an area, or any number of other non-beneficial reasons for adding such information.

I happen to be of the opinion that adding these details is a benefit to others. By putting in your $0.02 -- and as long as the opinion is honest and not out of spite, arrogance, or with malice -- I think that seeing what all the climbers who've climbed a particular route have to say about it is a good thing.

This also falls in line with one of the goals of Mountain Project, which is to provide information beyond the guidebook. We have all encountered incorrect route descriptions or erroneus ratings in guidebooks and I feel that Mountain Project is a means for confirming or disputing this type of information so that in the end, we have gone beyond the guidebook.

Now there is the philosophy of "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say it," but I feel that only partly applies here. Sure, if you dislike a particular style of climbing, say for example, slab climbing, then don't get on Mountain Project and give bombs to all the slab routes you've done just because they're slab. Likewise, if your favorite style of climbing is cracks, don't automatically give 4-stars to every crack you've climbed. Give suggestions in as unbiased a manner as possible (as unbiased as a personal opinion can be); if others disagree, fine; if others agree, fine again.

What do you all think?

EDIT: This doesn't apply to adding ticks to a route. Personally, I add ticks to keep track of the routes I've climbed and in what style I climbed them. I'd prefer to be the only one who could see my ticks, that way people don't think I'm bragging; perhaps that's something that could be changed with the format of Mountain Project?

i for one feel a concesis is good. most people on this site are here to get beta or give it. So the big shot mentality is not so prevelent. I have learned alot about climbs that I have done due to peoples input and comments. keep it going.

I love the consensus rating. I climb alot in eldorado canyon and it helps cut down on the sandbag factor. i have found a climb rated at 9 that the consensus is 10b... could keep the budding 5.9 climber from getting in over his head.

I think they are great features. I enjoyed these features more in my early days of mountanprojecting than now. I have been berated for my opinion of route difficulty, so now I tend to just go with the crowd unless I strongly disagree. I guess then for me now, there is no point in rating the climbs but I still do it. That's lame people though, not a lame feature at all.

When breaking into a new grade I like to use this feature to find "soft" routes a an intro to that grade. If I felt good there I will work my way up to "solid" climbs for the grade.

Stars is a great feature since you can really narrow down on the classics when you only have a short while to visit an area.

You can always note who gave the stars and grade awarded and adjust according to that. But consensus grading is the best way to grade climb difficulties.

Jason Hundhausen wrote:or a simply means for a person to show how many routes they climbed

That's what I think of regarding the tick list, not the stars added list. I use the stars list when I travel to determine which routes will be of interest for me.

Jason Hundhausen wrote:I'd prefer to be the only one who could see my ticks, that way people don't think I'm bragging; perhaps that's something that could be changed with the format of Mountain Project?

Aww, but the tick list is fun! I love to see what my friends in California and Nevada are climbing when I don't have the chance to chat with them.

Jason Hundhausen wrote: This also falls in line with one of the goals of Mountain Project, which is to provide information beyond the guidebook.

I've noticed that sometimes route comments really aren't related to anything other than a particular person's opinion of a route or their ability to climb (or not climb) it. I think of the comments field as information that is really necessary for safety or enjoyement and that fills in guide book holes, such as rap anchor info, whether lowering on a top-rope is possible, access issues, etc. But, we're all human, and thus fallible (i.e., it's not so easy to always stay on topic, even if the topic is the route we are commenting on!).

Logan Eckhardt wrote:I've noticed that sometimes route comments really aren't related to anything other than a particular person's opinion of a route or their ability to climb (or not climb) it. I think of the comments field as information that is really necessary for safety or enjoyement and that fills in guide book holes, such as rap anchor info, whether lowering on a top-rope is possible, access issues, etc. But, we're all human, and thus fallible (i.e., it's not so easy to always stay on topic, even if the topic is the route we are commenting on!).

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. I used to put comments on many of the routes I climbed, which usually amounted to saying "Great climb!" but that doesn't add any truly relevant information, it just makes it more difficult to find the relevant information in the comments section (especially with super popular routes). I agree with you, the comments section is most beneficial when it contains information relevant to the climb such as, like you said, rappel info, anchor states, whether linking pitches is possible/advised, etc.

Logan Eckhardt wrote:Aww, but the tick list is fun! I love to see what my friends in California and Nevada are climbing when I don't have the chance to chat with them.

True true, it is fun to see what your friends have been climbing. In the end, I decided to add ticks to each climb that I do. I'm putting it there for me and I'm certainly not bragging about all the 5.8s I've onsighted (well, yesterday there was this sick 5.5 I sent first go...) If people view it as bragging, that's their misconception.

I don't know about the rest of you all; by I can take/use all the stars I can get.

Difficulty ratings based on consensus, huh. What a novel idea. Hello. That's exactly how ratings come to be in guide books. Star ratings, on the other hand, I feel are much more subjective and may prevent you from trying certain routes cause their star rating is low. I've had many great and exciting experiences on "low" start rating routes such as the King's Hand, Moab, UT. Try em all and make up your own mind. After all, its about the experience anyway.

First of all, the Greg D posting above is an impostor and I demand that he be banned.

Secondly, I use the stars/ratings as much for my own record keeping as for anyone else. It's nice to see the consensus, but also nice to know that I can keep track of my personal opinions in a spot that I can easily look back on in the future.

Greg D wrote:Difficulty ratings based on consensus, huh. What a novel idea. Hello. That's exactly how ratings come to be in guide books.

meh, i still find tons of sandbagged routes in guidebooks despite whatever consensus goes into grading them.

also it seems like if tick lists were private then that would give braggers even more incentive to grade routes and give stars because they want people to see they've climbed it.

/begin philosophy
last, i don't think most braggers/bashers/sandbaggers realize what they're doing. hell i'm sure we all do these things from time to time and never think twice. this sort of thing seems subconscious. after doing a route you might feel pretty good about yourself and get on MP and say, "this route couldn't have been as hard as it was rated, you guys are just blowing things out of proportion!" i've seen tons of comments like this. it's human nature that we feel good about ourselves when we correct people. i'd bet that if you asked arno about this he'd say it's one of the ploys of the Ego.
/end philosophy

bottom line: i don't see a problem with these features.

I think that the consensus ratings are very helpful. I also like that you can see who has graded it. I really like this because I can go through and see if there are people that I know that have a similar stature as I do (extremely tall and lanky). I tend to have a different outlook on the difficulties of many climbs because of my height.

I usually don't pay too much attention to the stars, even though I will usually add what I feel the climb was. But, as stated before, I think that the "quality" rating is very subjective. I have been a few climbs that were listed as 2 stars that I gave a 4 star rating. Just depends on what you like, I guess.

Jason Hundhausen wrote: Yes, I've noticed the same thing. I used to put comments on many of the routes I climbed, which usually amounted to saying "Great climb!" but that doesn't add any truly relevant information, it just makes it more difficult to find the relevant information in the comments section (especially with super popular routes). I agree with you, the comments section is most beneficial when it contains information relevant to the climb such as, like you said, rappel info, anchor states, whether linking pitches is possible/advised, etc.

But, I think that even when you say "Great climb!", it gives you an opportunity to expound on why you thought it was a great climb, something that you can not do in the limited area given for tick descriptions. The strange thing is that I have seen people give a route 1 star, then go on to comment that the route is worthy. So, for some, low quality ratings in terms of stars do not necessarily indicate that the person suggests avoiding it.

I like the stars and consensus ratings. I feel like it gives me a better sense of what to expect or what other people's experiences were. Granted, just as with conferring in person about routes, you're going to get a wide range of opinions and it's just part of climbing. One person's experience is going to be different than another. I really like the star ratings for visiting new areas because it gives me a good sense of climbs not to miss.

As a new climber and very beginning leader I really like the consensus grading and the star system. It helps me decide what's within my limit and what might not be. The comments can be overwhelming at times, but little tidbits about rappel anchors and distances probably keep people from getting hurt on an almost daily basis.

I don't think it matters, allthough I think it should be your choice whether you choose to or not.