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Belaying off belay loop vs. tie in loop

Original Post
Isaac Lambert · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2023 · Points: 0

I'm a fairly new trad leader, having done about 15 leads. I've been learning from my peers, but I have been receiving conflicting advice in one regard.

Once you have finished a climb, built your anchor, and pulled up the rope, is it best practice to belay your second with the device attached to the tie-in point of the rope or directly onto the belay loop of your harness? I guess the question is, is it better for the force of a fall to be directed through your harness(you) and then the anchor, or just through the rope and, therefore anchor? 

Thanks!

Edit: Thank you for the responses, but I should have been more specific in my question. I do understand that when possible, it's best to use guide mode with an ATC or a GriGri, belaying off of a master point. My question was for in cases where the anchor is further back from the lip, and I'm sat down on the edge of the climb to belay.

Scott Biegert · · Belle Fourche, SD · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 172

While bringing up your second, it is almost always best to create a mastpoint on anchor and belay off that. Preferably with an ATC in guide mode. Usually belaying off harness is for special situations only, like belaying in a snow seat.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,814

Seriously, it depends. There are so many variables influencing the best choice. Especially with multi-pitch trad. And each way has benefits that the other does not afford.

So learn both ways well. But don’t get complacent by belaying off the anchor most of the time. Because it takes more practice to be efficient at setting up and efficiently belaying off the belay loop.

There is so much more to cover. But I’ll stop there for now.

Edit: I may have misunderstood the question. My response is about belaying off the belay loop versus directly off the master point of the anchor. Below, wivanoff provides a reference that may be more on point. 

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 719

Learn and practice both. And direct, indirect and redirect. Good discussion here ukclimbing.com/articles/ski…

Casey J · · NH · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 0

Generally, you should aim to belay off the anchor as then you can easily lock down the belay in case of an accident and easily descend the rope to assist. If you're belaying off your harness, you have to escape the belay first. 

That said, other conditions may dictate going off the harness (bad anchor, using yourself as part of an anchor etc. etc.)

Garden Pests · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 0

Your choice may take place before you build your anchor. What kind of fall force on the belay do you expect? Which option will be best for transitioning and protecting the next lead? Which is faster and smarter to set up, Which option does the anchor pro and location lay-out favor? Will the belayer benefit from seated resting?

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,687

If you do decide to belay directly off your tie-in loop, for pete's sake make sure you're not using a knot that can fail under ringloading, (opening a bowline, capsizing a retraced Figure 8 etc)

Cosmic Hotdog · · Southern California · Joined Sep 2019 · Points: 335

Just a note that however you choose to belay from above based on what makes the most sense using resources linked above, there are many devices beyond just a typical ATC that can accomplish this. A Grigri works just fine as well, among many other devices. No need to be married to an ATC. 

Eric Engberg · · Westborough, MA · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 0
Isaac Lambert wrote:

I'm a fairly new trad leader, having done about 15 leads. I've been learning from my peers, but I have been receiving conflicting advice in one regard.

Once you have finished a climb, built your anchor, and pulled up the rope, is it best practice to belay your second with the device attached to the tie-in point of the rope or directly onto the belay loop of your harness? I guess the question is, is it better for the force of a fall to be directed through your harness(you) and then the anchor, or just through the rope and, therefore anchor? 

Thanks!

I think there is some ambiguity about what you mean by "tie-in point of the rope"

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Isaac Lambert wrote:

I'm a fairly new trad leader, having done about 15 leads. I've been learning from my peers, but I have been receiving conflicting advice in one regard.

Once you have finished a climb, built your anchor, and pulled up the rope, is it best practice to belay your second with the device attached to the tie-in point of the rope or directly onto the belay loop of your harness? I guess the question is, is it better for the force of a fall to be directed through your harness(you) and then the anchor, or just through the rope and, therefore anchor? 

Thanks!

Your question is about belay loop vs tie-in loop belay device position, but some folks want to tell you not to use either. Nowadays, it is becoming standard practice to use a guide-type plaquette or a Grigri situated on the anchor and belay directly with that.  Like all systems, this has advantages and drawbacks and, as with many systems, it is sometimes deployed in situations where it is subobtimal and a harness-level belay would really be better. (One such situation is when the anchor is far back from the lip.  The best set-up for this is to have the belayer sitting at the lip and belaying with the tie-in loop method. Another such situation is when the only possible or maybe just the best anchor is really low. A third situation occurs if something about the configuration of the anchor location makes it impossible to release a loaded device.)

Belay escapes with the device on the tie-in loop are no harder and no different from escapes with the device on the harness belay loop. The steps involved in getting the load strand out of the device and anchored to an anchor point are the same for both situations. (Most climbers will never have to do a belay escape in their entire careers.)

If you are going to do a harness belay, using the tie-in loop and so directing the load directly to the anchor (mitigated by the length of tie-in to the anchor) is better than having the device on the belay loop for the obvious reason that when loading happens you take the pinching and twisting of the harness out of the system.  As Gunkiemike says, you should be using a knot that can handle ring-loading.  A figure-eight is fine, but so is a properly backed-up bowline (emphasis on "properly backed up").  That said, I've used the method for more than 20 years and have never seen the tie-in knot ring-loaded by a fall.  One thing to attend to, if you are sitting, is where the load strand runs.  As much as possible, you want to keep from having a leg pinned down when the belay is loaded.  How much of a problem this is depends on how low the anchor point is.

In recent years, we've seen a rash of incidents in which the climber hasn't properly tied their knot. Usually, no knot has been tied but sometimes the knot has only been partially completed. This is more of a problem with figure-eights than bowlines, because a partially-tied figure-eight can hang together and so give the climber an impression of being tied in. A partially-tied knot could, of course, be catastrophic tor the rope-loop belay method.

Isaac Lambert · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2023 · Points: 0
Eric Engberg wrote:

I think there is some ambiguity about what you mean by "tie-in point of the rope"

I meant the rope loop created where you tie the rope into your harness

Isaac Lambert · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2023 · Points: 0
rgold wrote:

Your question is about belay loop vs tie-in loop belay device position, but some folks want to tell you not to use either. Nowadays, it is becoming standard practice to use a guide-type plaquette or a Grigri situated on the anchor and belay directly with that.  Like all systems, this has advantages and drawbacks and, as with many systems, it is sometimes deployed in situations where it is subobtimal and a harness-level belay would really be better. (One such situation is when the anchor is far back from the lip.  The best set-up for this is to have the belayer sitting at the lip and belaying with the tie-in loop method. Another such situation is when the only possible or maybe just the best anchor is really low. A third situation occurs if something about the configuration of the anchor location makes it impossible to release a loaded device.)

Belay escapes with the device on the tie-in loop are no harder and no different from escapes with the device on the harness belay loop. The steps involved in getting the load strand out of the device and anchored to an anchor point are the same for both situations. (Most climbers will never have to do a belay escape in their entire careers.)

If you are going to do a harness belay, using the tie-in loop and so directing the load directly to the anchor (mitigated by the length of tie-in to the anchor) is better than having the device on the belay loop for the obvious reason that when loading happens you take the pinching and twisting of the harness out of the system.  As Gunkiemike says, you should be using a knot that can handle ring-loading.  A figure-eight is fine, but so is a properly backed-up bowline (emphasis on "properly backed up").  That said, I've used the method for more than 20 years and have never seen the tie-in knot ring-loaded by a fall.  One thing to attend to, if you are sitting, is where the load strand runs.  As much as possible, you want to keep from having a leg pinned down when the belay is loaded.  How much of a problem this is depends on how low the anchor point is.

In recent years, we've seen a rash of incidents in which the climber hasn't properly tied their knot. Usually, no knot has been tied but sometimes the knot has only been partially completed. This is more of a problem with figure-eights than bowlines, because a partially-tied figure-eight can hang together and so give the climber an impression of being tied in. A partially-tied knot could, of course, be catastrophic tor the rope-loop belay method.

Thank you so much for the detailed response. In my original question, I should have been more specific. I meant in cases where I was sat on the edge of the lip with the anchor further back. I do understand that where possible, it's best to use guide mode on an ATC or a GriGri.

Isaac Lambert · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2023 · Points: 0
wivanoff wrote:

Learn and practice both. And direct, indirect and redirect. Good discussion here ukclimbing.com/articles/ski…

This was perfect; it answered my question exactly, thank you!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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