CONNECT: The Next Generation of Crag Developers

CONNECT: The Next Generation of Crag Developers (American Alpine Club Podcast)

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5E6D1MhvS7P3fZ0pNPHVWB?si=Sqy2JX4eSEeH93iK6aXBFA

Is this the future? Will the climbing community finance future climb areas?

After several years of self financing I'm mostly getting others to pay for my hardware now. So definitely maybe?

As someone who was a part of this project (I’m the Tal mentioned a couple of times), it was an awesome project to be apart of. The mentees absolutely crushed it at every step of the process, I learned a ton from my fellow mentors and can’t speak highly enough about Josh and all of the folks we worked with from JCOS and the like.

Is it the future? I don’t know - I’d love to see the community be more involved in bringing new crags to life. Funding is one way to do that, and that’s great, especially in rural or more remote areas where the financial cost is really being shouldered by one individual who may not have a ton of disposable income. Sweat equity and ownership is another though, and definitely the way I’d love to see more crags come to fruition.

It was great having the funding part of this covered, but realistically it was way cooler just seeing so many people out at the crag, scrubbing and testing lines and bolting and everything else. I know so many developers who would happily pay forward all of the hardware for a situation like that if needed. I think that’s the area of emphasis here - I really can’t express how rewarding it was to literally see a community coming together over a few weeks to put in new climbs for folks. I’d love to figure out how to continue facilitating that in the future.

It’s really easy to see development and getting FAs as an ego driven process but the reality is it’s a ton of hard work and time sacrificed that could be spent climbing the fruits of someone else’s labor - it’s like pulling teeth trying to get folks out to develop with me (though I might just suck ass as a human so that could be on me). Having folks get exposed to the process and put their own spin on the crag just creates a more diverse climbing ecosystem - both in terms of people representation and available climbing. I can’t count the amount of times I’ve brought people out and they’ve seen the crag and potential undone lines in a completely different light than me, and we’ve been rewarded with some really exceptional climbing as a result. So I hope crags coming together as community efforts rather than that of an individual and their select buddies is the future for sure

Rick.Krause Krause wrote:

Is this the future? Will the climbing community finance future climb area

Bolting routes is just one small part of creating and maintaining a quality crag. Often times people want to spray bolts, get their name in the book, and then move on, leaving "others" to do the dirty work.

 I spent all my "rack money" for years, at least $10,000 personally, on bolts. But now that the crag has "proven value", I receive crowd funding....

I set up a Patreon account which has proven to make a huge difference over the years. It helps me mentally to know I am supported when I'm cleaning up dog shit, human shit, trash, etc...

I think "the future" is blockchain technology and use-based, crypto-funded crags.... but for now, the "crowd funded" model is working... consider donating locally

I would never ask or expect anyone to help pay for putting up new routes I establish unless they are doing the work with me.  

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I would never ask or expect anyone to help pay for putting up new routes I establish unless they are doing the work with me.  

I don't EXPECT anything...... but people cannot support something worthy if they don't know how. And maybe you are just that affluent.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I would never ask or expect anyone to help pay for putting up new routes I establish unless they are doing the work with me.  

People have asked to donate money to me so often I have just put my Venmo details in my PDF guide now. I'm a broke ass bastard so realistically it means more routes get put up this way and faster since I don't have to work to get the funds for the bolts. 

Also I put a huge amount of thought into the routes I put up and although I have put up some routes primarily for me, most of the ones I have put up have been with the intention of them being a gift to NorCal moderate leaders who don't have much well protected routes within a few hours drive of the SF Bay or Central Valley. 

People recognize that and want to pay to get more of that. What's the downside here? I get to spend my time putting bolts in rock and doing trail work instead of driving for Instacart, and the people that go to my crag get more routes faster. 

Am I doing this all wrong?   I’ve spent at least $5k a year for the past several years.  I also don’t publicize or widely tell people about my routes or areas.   Good for you if you can get a little back.    It just never occurred to me.   More power to you I guess.  

Ricky Harline wrote:

What's the downside here?

Ricky Harline wrote:

the people that go to my crag

My region's local access society has a small fund for reimbursing for new routes or any hardware upgrades on existing routes. There is an emphasis on using good quality stainless hardware and, sharing info about new climbs, and making sure there are no access issues for new routes (ie new routes on are public land or permanent access has been formalized). It won't cover 100% of expenses but I think it goes a long way towards recognizing the time and effort that they put into it.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

 I also don’t publicize or widely tell people about my routes or areas.

This would be my main reason for not soliciting donations it would feel like a job where people would expect progress reports and that is hard to do while also not telling anyone that the area exists or posting about it online.

PWZ wrote:

Ricky Harline wrote: 

the people that go to my crag

Lol people going to my crag brings me joy. 

I certainly respect Kevin's approach and don't wish he did anything different. I certainly have enjoyed a lot of days at quiet secret crags. But for me I want to the information to be public information as soon as is realistically possible (thinking maybe towards end of 2027) and my current state of the crag being semi-published is working out well and I love seeing strangers I don't know who have gotten the guide from a friend of a friend of a friend of mine. 

I contribute to secret crags as well, and I don't talk about them ever. But there's something fun and joyous about getting to share my hard work with others and seeing it make them happy. 

Once you accept money for a route, you sold it. 

Caveat emptor.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Once you accept money for a route, you sold it. 

Caveat emptor.

Call me the rock salesman then. 

*Pats rock*

You can fit so much adventure in this bad boy!

PWZ wrote:

Ricky Harline wrote: 

the people that go to my crag

Ding ding 

Ricky Harline wrote:

Lol people going to my crag brings me joy. 

I certainly respect Kevin's approach and don't wish he did anything different. I certainly have enjoyed a lot of days at quiet secret crags. But for me I want to the information to be public information as soon as is realistically possible (thinking maybe towards end of 2027) and my current state of the crag being semi-published is working out well and I love seeing strangers I don't know who have gotten the guide from a friend of a friend of a friend of mine. 

I contribute to secret crags as well, and I don't talk about them ever. But there's something fun and joyous about getting to share my hard work with others and seeing it make them happy. 

Calling  San Antonio Creek Falls your crag is pretty cringy Ricky. That’s great your bolting it and brining joy for the community, surely you can do that without the entitlement of calling it yours. No shade your way just a perspective. Also you’re a hero for climbing with Pete there!

Cheers to the underground 

Not to knock anyone's approach, but...

A potential downside to publicizing/crowd-sourcing route development is that this could draw the general public to an area before it's safe for the less-experienced. Sure, risk is ultimately on the climber, but I bet most of us would feel awful if someone got hurt on an unfinished route that we were establishing. Obviously, this is a bigger concern on the choss that I call home than on some granite batholith that was recently cleaned by a glacier.

Another concern is that drawing a bunch of attention to development of a particular area on public land could get that work shut down or at least postponed. I'm not advocating here for clandestine development of areas with wildlife or cultural resource concerns, and in an ideal world, we all work together to identify and avoid such areas. But for a District Ranger or the like, the safest/easiest response to any publicized development activity might be to shut it down until surveys had been completed. In an understaffed, fire-prone district, we may be looking at years of delay.

Ricky, it sounds like you've found a workable middle-ground between the don't-ask-don't-tell and the what's-up-Youtube approaches. Good on you! I've learned a lot from your posts, and I'm glad you're getting some support for your work.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

Am I doing this all wrong?   I’ve spent at least $5k a year for the past several years.  I also don’t publicize or widely tell people about my routes or areas.   Good for you if you can get a little back.    It just never occurred to me.   More power to you I guess.  

ah Kevin, you are just so much more virtuous than us plebs, "more power" to you, I guess

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

Calling  San Antonio Creek Falls your crag is pretty cringy Ricky. That’s great your bolting it and brining joy for the community, surely you can do that without the entitlement of calling it yours. No shade your way just a perspective. Also you’re a hero for climbing with Pete there!

Cheers to the underground 

"The area which I'm developing" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. I don't feel any sense of ownership over it, and it's pretty common for developers to use that term for areas they develop which are as little theirs as the ART is mine. *Shrugs*

Logan Peterson wrote:

Not to knock anyone's approach, but...

A potential downside to publicizing/crowd-sourcing route development is that this could draw the general public to an area before it's safe for the less-experienced. Sure, risk is ultimately on the climber, but I bet most of us would feel awful if someone got hurt on an unfinished route that we were establishing. Obviously, this is a bigger concern on the choss that I call home than on some granite batholith that was recently cleaned by a glacier.

Another concern is that drawing a bunch of attention to development of a particular area on public land could get that work shut down or at least postponed. I'm not advocating here for clandestine development of areas with wildlife or cultural resource concerns, and in an ideal world, we all work together to identify and avoid such areas. But for a District Ranger or the like, the safest/easiest response to any publicized development activity might be to shut it down until surveys had been completed. In an understaffed, fire-prone district, we may be looking at years of delay.

Ricky, it sounds like you've found a workable middle-ground between the don't-ask-don't-tell and the what's-up-Youtube approaches. Good on you! I've learned a lot from your posts, and I'm glad you're getting some support for your work.

You raise some good points re: publicizing areas before they are ready. In the case of the Narrow Gauge Slabs, there were definitely delays - Josh submitted the crag to Jefferson County in 2021 and the first route wasn't put up until April/May of 2024. Even after that, one half of the crag was off-limits to development until it had a complete trail to the base (courtesy of Boulder Climbing Community!) Josh & Jefferson County were very clear with us to keep the area quiet until it was 100% ready for the general public in late August, so we we did. This was all required due to JeffCo's Fixed Hardware Review Committee / New Crag Evaluation Criteria. In other words, the community approach worked at this crag because the land manager was both willing to play ball and had a process in place to make it happen. It was an incredible experience that I am eternally grateful for.

In areas without that level of support from the land manager, it's definitely a risk to publicize / promote / facilitate route development in this way. In that case, it has never been easier to identify and reach out to your local developer(s) / LCO and get a feel for what's going on in your area. They are usually stoked to accept a few bucks, and if not, they are definitely happy to have you come and help with labor.

Jace K wrote:

In areas without that level of support from the land manager, it's definitely a risk to publicize / promote / facilitate route development in this way. In that case, it has never been easier to identify and reach out to your local developer(s) / LCO and get a feel for what's going on in your area. They are usually stoked to accept a few bucks, and if not, they are definitely happy to have you come and help with labor.

Perhaps one of the best features of MP is that it often enables us to reach out to first ascensionists with, "Hey, can I throw some bolts at you?" or "Would I be stepping on any toes if I put up a line 15 feet right of XYZ?" I wish more of us had the wherewithal to do this.

Some of our more prolific developers occasionally get cash or bolts from the 2% of climbers who understand how we get routes, and I think this is great.

The idea that a developer would be happy to have a new-to-them person around while they're trundling blocks fascinates me, and might reflect a cultural divide that I've yet to cross. I'm glad to hear that's working in CO!

The project you described above sounds awesome, and my hat is off to folks with the chutzpah and social skills to pull such a task off.