How many years does it really take to climb an 8a?

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

 Your argument is based on someone considering 8a as elite and I’m not. 

I never said that. And I never said throwing 85 consistently in the strike zone is elite. But both are levels where a significant number of participants try quite hard and don't reach the mark.

In order to be convincing, the "everyone can climb 8a" crowd has to overcome the fact that there are a lot of climbers who haven't yet climbed 8a. 

this question is relative, and depends entirely on how long the 8a climb is. a single pitch 8a climb will generally not take as long as a two pitch 8a climb, and so on.

Kitty hatr, you really seem to be missing my point. What I was responding to, are those who content that ‘anyone’ who puts in the time and effort can climb 8a. I disagree, as I think that many, even among those who try hard, won’t get there due to various inherent limitations. 8a May no longer be ‘elite’ but it is still a significant athletic accomplishment.

So, if our basic ‘category’ is ‘anyone’, then, with the football comparison, only a handful of students in a given high school will have the ability to be varsity ( or even JV) quarterback. And being a high school quarterback doesn’t make one an elite athlete ( except in the context of that high school), but is still a significant athletic accomplishment. People have inherent individual ‘gifts’ or talent, that can often be improved and maximized by work and effort, but not always or by all.

Alan Rubinwrote:

Kitty hatr, you really seem to be missing my point.

Maybe, from my perspective I could say the same of you.

What I was responding to, are those who content that ‘anyone’ who puts in the time and effort can climb 8a. I disagree, as I think that many, even among those who try hard, won’t get there due to various inherent limitations. 8a May no longer be ‘elite’ but it is still a significant athletic accomplishment.

At least we agree here  

So, if our basic ‘category’ is ‘anyone’, then, with the football comparison, only a handful of students in a given high school will have the ability to be varsity ( or even JV) quarterback. And being a high school quarterback doesn’t make one an elite athlete ( except in the context of that high school), but is still a significant athletic accomplishment.

This is where our interpretation differs. My point of “anyone” doesn’t mean just random ass people who don’t climb as your analogy here suggests. I’m saying anyone who focuses solely on climbing and trains for climbing for a long time can achieve 8a.

Your comparison regarding a high school QB isn’t applicable as only a handful of people were training and preparing to be QB or play football. In my experience, and opinion, anyone who was preparing to be a QB for multiple years would be able to throw it more than 30 yards…and then some. Of course someone who has never thrown a football before likely won’t be as successful. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t capable though…and from my point of view that is the point you’re missing. I am not saying anyone at any given moment. I’m saying anyone who has trained specifically for 8a/throwing a football 30 yards. Could likely achieve that. They would be capable given the correct training and preparation.

People have inherent individual ‘gifts’ or talent, that can often be improved and maximized by work and effort, but not always or by all.

I agree. In my opinion this only would determine the length of time to achieve the goal (of 8a or throwing a ball 30 yards) and/or how much they surpass it.

Nkane 1 wrote:

I never said that. And I never said throwing 85 consistently in the strike zone is elite. But both are levels where a significant number of participants try quite hard and don't reach the mark.

Fair point, I would argue that people often fall short of many things they are fully capable of. 

In order to be convincing, the "everyone can climb 8a" crowd has to overcome the fact that there are a lot of climbers who haven't yet climbed 8a.

Lol by this logic you could say the same of 5.12/V5….or even 5.11/V3. We are discussing capability and potential, not one’s ticklist. I see your point but it holds little value when discussing a hypothetical subjective achievement. I’m surprised nobody has even brought up the whole grades-are-subjective bullshit counter argument.

 Italian Yoda:

shoulda said Prince Dog Hatr instead. woulda made more sense

That makes zero sense

This is comically similar to "Can anyone become a millionaire"

Exceptions are the rule around here lol 

Well Kitty Hatr, you’ve VERY much narrowed your definition of ‘anyone’ to basically say that ‘anyone’ in the sub-set of people who can climb 8a can climb 8a!!!! My point remains that even among dedicated climbers, most do not have that capability ( either physiologically or psychologically or because of other factors in their lives) to achieve that level of performance.

So Niall Grimes on his podcast was talking about a new program Lattice has. They've actually narrowed their metrics down not just for grades but for 250 specific routes in the Peak District, so for e.g. a particular classic 8a they can say that most climbers who have ticked it have this max hang, this critical force etc.

Then if you pass the benchmarks you are able to go and tick that climb on the Lattice app and share it on social media without having to actually go and climb it, like an equivalency test!

It's $350 a month but if your subscription lapses your ticks get deleted.

Sounds good to me! Surely anyone can tick an 8a that way.

So I’m gonna add a data point to this discussion because I’m someone who is right at the cusp of 8a. (I’ve climbed two of them.) I have been climbing since I was 14, in 1998. I have been climbing “seriously” (multiple days a week in the gym or outside) since 2009. I have been doing climbing-specific training since 2019, in a pretty dedicated way (both self-coached and with remote coaching). And I have been focused almost exclusively on hard sport climbing and pushing the grades since 2016. (I.e., I’m not afraid to try hard and I know how to project a route—although there’s clearly room for improvement!) I climbed my first 8a in 2020 and my second one last year in 2022. I have a remote job and live close enough to rumney that I am able to get out at least once a week, if not 2x a week.

I have some genetic predisposition towards being a decent climber. I’m 6’1”, very flexible, pretty light for my height (170), and have always been decently athletic.

But I’ve never been a full-time climber and I have two kids, so I am always juggling my responsibilities.

Clearly just one data point. But I think my example shows that climbing 8a is incredibly difficult and requires a ton of dedicated time and energy, in addition to living close enough to good hard climbing. Someone with slightly more challenging genetics (eg shorter or higher bmi), would have to dedicate even more time and energy. And if you don’t have easy access to hard, easily project-able climbing, it’s even tougher.

So, can anyone climb 8a? Given the realities of life and the fact that most of us can’t be full-time climbers? I’d say no. But there are so many moving parts here that it’s hard to make generalizations. 

Alan Rubinwrote:

Well Kitty Hatr, you’ve VERY much narrowed your definition of ‘anyone’ to basically say that ‘anyone’ in the sub-set of people who can climb 8a can climb 8a!!!! My point remains that even among dedicated climbers, most do not have that capability ( either physiologically or psychologically or because of other factors in their lives) to achieve that level of performance.

We definitely disagree, and that’s perfectly ok, but my definition of “anyone” is far from narrow. The only thing that has narrowed my search, so-to-speak, is adding that the person attempting to climb 8a should make that their priority. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. As I stated from the beginning, and continue to argue, my definition of anyone” is referring to anyone who is willing to put in the time, effort, and mental fortitude to make it happen. I don’t think everyone can climb 8a. Maybe that’s a distinction you’re missing or I failed to make clear. I agree someone who is distracted by children, Mtn biking, beer league sports, etc. will never climb 8a, despite likely being capable.

My argument purely revolves around the fact that I believe anyone has the capability to climb 8a if they are dedicated and go about achieving that goal strategically. I certainly don’t think anyone or everyone will climb 8a, but I certainly believe anyone can. It’s almost entirely semantics with you at at this point, but I still view your interpretation as arguing that “everyone can climb 8a” while I am arguing that “anyone is able to climb 8a”. Those are two different arguments that do not necessarily parallel. 

The key to being a good sport climber is being a mediocre boulderer. If you can pull V6 moves, odds are you can climb 8a with a bit of fitness and some tactics.

Prince Kitty Hatr wrote:

You aren’t on the cusp if you’ve climbed multiple of the grade…the title implies a singular 8a is all that needs to be climbed. You’ve doubled the criteria. 

This seems very contradictory given you just said you’ve accomplished two 8a despite all of these things…

Two over the course of almost four years doesn’t exactly mean I’m so far beyond having climbed just one! 8a still feels like a huge undertaking for me.

It’s not contradictory because I feel like I have a lot of advantages over most climbers—both time to dedicate to training and redpointing (working remotely with a flex schedule), living super close to some of the best hard sport in the country, and moderate genetic advantages—and even then I’m barely scratching at it.

Most of this comes down to what people think is a reasonable amount of time and energy to devote to climbing. The spectrum is large, from full time climber to weekend warrior. And it makes a huge difference.

Alec Owrote:

Two over the course of almost four years doesn’t exactly mean I’m so far beyond having climbed just one! 8a still feels like a huge undertaking for me.

Yeah, I mean 8a very well may be close to your limit at the current moment. I am also in no way trying to say that 8a is easy or easily attainable. My argument is that it is possible for anyone to achieve, given they are properly motivated. All I’m saying is that this thread was started by asking how long would it take for someone to climb an 8a…implying only 1 would be required to qualify. Which you have. 

It’s not contradictory because I feel like I have a lot of advantages over most climbers—both time to dedicate to training and redpointing (working remotely with a flex schedule), living super close to some of the best hard sport in the country, and moderate genetic advantages—and even then I’m barely scratching at it.

Aside from height, you didn’t really list a single thing that anyone else would be unable achieve. You have also stated you’re not climbing full time, have 2 kids, other responsibilities, and other things that seem to “offset” (and I interpret as contradict) many perceived advantages you listed. 

Most of this comes down to what people think is a reasonable amount of time and energy to devote to climbing. The spectrum is large, from full time climber to weekend warrior. And it makes a huge difference.

I agree, this entire conversation is entirely hypothetical and subjective…which is likely why we are like 8 pages in and are no closer to answer than the first post was lol 

Alan Rubinwrote:

Well Kitty Hatr, you’ve VERY much narrowed your definition of ‘anyone’ to basically say that ‘anyone’ in the sub-set of people who can climb 8a can climb 8a!!!! My point remains that even among dedicated climbers, most do not have that capability ( either physiologically or psychologically or because of other factors in their lives) to achieve that level of performance.

Exactly what I wrote a couple of weeks ago:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/124586706/how-many-years-does-it-really-take-to-climb-an-8a?page=4#ForumMessage-124632477

Prince's trolling is going strong like Energizer Bunny.

Yurywrote:

Exactly what I wrote a couple of weeks ago:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/124586706/how-many-years-does-it-really-take-to-climb-an-8a?page=4#ForumMessage-124632477

Prince's trolling is going strong like Energizer Bunny.

I’m interested in how you perceive my posts as trolling. There are several other posts stating the same as me, albeit with much less words. There was even a post a couple hours ago saying you can be a mediocre boulder and still climb 8a, but somehow I’m the only one trolling, presumably just cause I’m a optimistic anyone can climb 8a? 

What Princess is saying is essentially the same as anyone can be a doctor, become a scratch golfer, etc. Of course you could in theory, but it is selling the accomplishment itself short in my opinion

Dane Bwrote:

What Princess is saying is essentially the same as anyone can be a doctor, become a scratch golfer, etc. Of course you could in theory, but it is selling the accomplishment itself short in my opinion

Uhhhh, it’s PRINCE! But yes, that’s pretty much the gist of what I’m saying. However, many people here apparently still disagree with this ideology. Though I’m not sure it’s necessarily selling the accomplishment short. It’s not really an elite grade anymore. But that’s an entirely different conversation   

My main takeaway from this thread is a lot of people are bored at work and like to argue.

Emil Briggswrote:

My main takeaway from this thread is a lot of people are bored at work and like to argue.

You’re cute if you think we work 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

You’re cute if you think we work 

LOL! I stand corrected.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

You’re cute if you think we work 

No wonder you think everyone can climb 8a... not everyone is so lucky to not have a real job.