Anyone know the condition of the fixed hardware on the WEML?

Hi all,  I'm hoping to head up the captain in June and the WEML is one of the routes on my list.  I did new dawn up to Texas flake and bailed because of weather a few years ago so I'm eyeing the WEML so I don't have to re climb a bunch of pitches.  If I am remembering correctly Matt Lambert (Lambone) and maybe Pete climbed it a fews years ago and cleaned up the mess Jim Beyer left and was curious what we might find up there.  I think I saw Brandon Adams did the route as well.  Just checking to see how robust our drill kit might need to be and what to expect.  Sorry if I am inept at using the mountain project search feature but I couldn't find anything when I looked.  Thanks in advance and let the heckling begin!!!!

Yes, I have been up there a couple times in the past few years.  We climbed Hockey Night in Canada to Mescalito, and prior to that we climbed WOEML in its entirety.  In some cases, we were able to remove the mangled bolts and hangers, but I think at the top of the first pitch, the buggered bolts were too new, and we simply could not get them out with our tuning forks.  But for both Hockey Night and Wall of Early Morning Light, we fixed all the vandalism that dipshit Jim Beyer did, so both routes are good to go.

I mean, if you can haul the Dr. Piton Junk Show on the anchors, then you can haul anything!

Thanks Pete! One other question considering the condition of the lead rivets you saw how many bolts or rivets would you carry in your drill kit?

Dan,

You should always have a few bolts and rivets with you when you venture off the well-travelled trade routes.  This being said, I very much doubt you will need them.  There are enough solid bolts at every belay to haul the Dr. Piton Junk Show, so that has to tell you something. 

As for rivets, the ones on WOEML aren't rivets by the modern definition, rather they are the original aluminum dowels placed by Batso himself.  Since they are aluminum and not steel, they have not rusted, nor particularly oxidized.  They are all in surprisingly great shape, considering how old they are. Basically Warren whacked a hunk of bar stock aluminum into a hole, and mushroomed the head a bit with his hammer.  The mushroomed heads on some of these otherwise solid dowels are quite small, and I would definitely recommend you bring about 3 #0 loop style rivet hangers, the best ever made coming from the Donny Lama aka Donny Goetz.  

Why am I telling you to get #0 loop style, and not cinching-style Y-shaped?  Shouldn't the cinching style be more secure? 

Thanks Pete! That's super helpful! Maybe we'll see you out there in June.

Peter Zabrok wrote:

.  We climbed Hockey Night in Canada to Mescalito,

Ah yes- the old “Hockey Night in CamelToe” variation 

Mydans,

You did not, like, answer my question about the #0 rivet hangers, eh?  The success of your ascent depends on it.  

I thought it was rhetorical.  I some of the Y style cinch and some of the small regular loop style rivet hangers I also have some of the Moses keyhole hangers but it sounds like those might not work on those rivets.  We're gonna take the kitchen sink in terms of rivet hangers since they are light in the hopes that we will have enough. Do you not like one version for one reason or another? If I'm remembering correctly I've seen some people say they don't like the Y type but I can't remember the specifics.

edit: I went home and looked at my Y style rivet hangers and to cinch they are much longer than the 8 style loops and don't cinch as well.  I have a couple loop style but I'll want more.  The only ones I can find are the #1 Yates on backcountrygear.  Are those small enough? Are the rivets reachy? I'm about 5'6" If I remember correctly Warren Harding wasn't that tall.

The rivets on WOEML [really aluminum dowels] are the most NON-reachy rivets you will ever clip.  Reach is not an issue at all on this route.  The rivets traverse from right to left mostly, and don't go up.

I wrote #0 rivet hangers, but I really meant #1. When you are on it, the cable is so thin it will feel like a #0!

So, you don't need reachy rivet hangers. You will need thin rivet hangers to fit over some of the aluminum dowels, because the head is merely a mushroomed hunk of bar stock aluminum whacked in a hole, yet still surprisingly good 50 years later.

So ... what rivet hangers should you use?  Loop style or cinch style?  Wouldn't the cinch style be better, because they will bite and hold better on the crappy rivets.  Or not? There is something more to this question: which #1 rivet hanger should you use?  Cinch style or loop style?  And why?  It's important. Let's see who knows.  

How mushroomed are the dowels?

Cinch might be hard to clean if lip of “mushroom” at end is deep.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

The arguments against cinch-style rivet hangers are generally overblown and belong in the realm of bigwall theory 

Not in the #1 size! 

Are you guys going to explain or do we just have to start reading minds?

Alex Fletcher wrote:

Are you guys going to explain or do we just have to start reading minds?

You have to buy the book 

^ Hahaha!

Cinch style rivet hangers are only half the strength of loop style rivet hangers, because there is only one cable supporting your weight, not two. This is not a problem in a big #3 size, but is a huge problem with those super skinny #1 hangers you have to use on Warren Harding's dowels. #1 cinch style rivet hangers will barely hold your body weight, although on those difficult rivets, they can really bite tremendously well and not slip off.  Just be careful on a #1 cinch style - they are known to break easily!

I would recommend bringing about 3 of each #1 size - 3 cinch style and 3 loop style. You can use a bit of duct tape to secure the loop style if you like. Not all the dowels are so dire - plenty will accept regular #2 hangers.  Don't think you'd get a plate hanger to stick on them very often, though.

The best hangers and heads made these days are made by the Donny Lama aka Donny Goetz.  You can find him on Facebook, or here is his email:  donny.goetz@gmail.com   Mention my name, eh?  ;)  

Strength makes sense! I wondered if that was it but that answer seemed too obvious. Thanks for the details explanation. Much appreciated Mr. Zabrock.

I knew the loops were stronger, but didn’t know the #1 cinch was so fragile. Thanks!

If you can find that old chestnut video of me soloing Native Son on YouTube that good ol Chris Falkenstein made, you'll see me on the Golden Nipple pitch on Native Son.  I did a penji off a rivet, rigged with a #1 cinch style.  It held.

The late Thad Friday followed me up the route solo also, and later told me that the damn thing broke when he was on it!  "What were you thinking, using a #1 cinch style rivet hanger on a penji?!"   

Still though, that was a penji, where my weight was doubled due to physics. Just leading a traversing rivet ladder on #1 cinch-style might not be too bad. They sure do bite well on those mushroomed-head dowels.  

I wasn't trying to be evasive, or a smartass, I just wanted folks to think about the reason.

Good ol Tom Randall - one of the Wide Boys along with Pete Whittaker - thought he would give a solo speed ascent of Eagle's Way a try. He probably wasn't hauling much of anything, so couldn't "use his haul bag as a belayer" to introduce an extra length of rope into his system before leaving the belay. Shortly above leaving his belay anchor, he was climbing, and he fell onto a Bryan Law cinch style rivet hanger, I believe a big fat #3. So Tom took his fall onto the cinch style rivet hanger which BROKE, and Tom Factor Two'd onto his belay anchors!

It gets worse ...

The carabiner on his GriGri also BROKE under the force of his factor 2 fall! And good ol Tom started plummeting earthwards, madly clutching at his rope with his bare hands, kind of like Dean Potter clutching at the cavers' ropes in Sotano de las Golondrinas in Mexico when he skydived in, and got tangled in the ropes. Dean stopped himself, but Tom couldn't, at least until such time as Tom hit his backup knot, which saved his life. Note to those wankers in Yann Camus' forum who think a "backup knot" in a solo aid system is some sort of slipknot tied in the lead rope so it can't pull through the GriGri - not much help if the locker on your GriGri is busted, eh?

Tom Randall showed me the rope burns in his hands - pretty gruesome! Needless to say, he bailed.

And so far as I am aware, Bryan Law never sold another rivet hanger, nor head, nor any of the other great stuff he used to make. I'd love to hear from him. Maybe someone can share this with him. Quite a story - you can't make this shit up, eh?

P.S. We're caving here in Huautla, down in Mexico, discovering, exploring and surveying some deep pits.  Lots of rappelling and jugging, all done "caver style" using the Froggy method. Check out my Facebook page for cool videos and photos.  Cheers, eh? 

Tom’s report of his accident:

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13200305300/Fall-on-Rock-Inadequate-Protection-Inadequate-Clothing-and-Equipment-Weather

I find myself defending Yann a lot which I find strange as I think there isn't a lack of valid things to criticize about him. However, to be clear, Yann himself is exceedingly clear between what a true backup knot is and what a trailing stopper knots is. Also, yes, he doesn't using backup knots Yann himself and teaches not using them, however he uses and teaches the implementation of quicklinks. 

Using backup knots matters when the carabiner holding the LRS device has a known failure mode which they basically all do, except for quicklinks. Had Tom been using a Yann-esque system he wouldn't have come off his device in the first place, and this is why Yann and the Yann-ites don't use back up knots. 

I don't have any criticisms of Yann - I just said some of those wankers on Yann's forum. 

From Tom's accident report:  "I didn’t think I was going to fall in the first easy 25 feet of climbing, and I didn’t think that a big rivet hanger would break. And next time I’ll take along some shock absorbers for those critical pieces."    

Be careful about back cleaning - don't do it when you're first leaving the belay and the fall factor forces are high. Tom didn't mention in the report that the rivet hanger was cinch style, and not loop style.  A loop style hanger is at least twice as strong, and might not have broken.  

"I don’t remember who said that about the combination of errors and bad luck that leads to failure situations, but I couldn’t agree more."

That would be, like, me, eh? It's known as the synergistic effect whereby the whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts. In other words, one small error might not kill you, but a bunch of small errors all put together might.

Interestingly, I did not know that Tom got rescued. John Dill also suggests that Tom was charged with reckless endangerment? Anyone know what became of that?  

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

that’s a big maybe but sliding off the end of your rope is also a good reason to have a back up knot or at least tie into the end… 

edit: i can’t believe he sells this possibly life ending “way” to rope solo. what a waste of money. 

It's rare I disagree with you on this stuff but I just don't understand how this is even remotely dangerous. How can you generate even half the force necessary to break a cross loaded quicklink in an LRS fall? You can't. Also the quicklink even if it goes cross loaded would unlikely stay that way in a fall. I think you're completely wrong on this one. 

@Peter: ah, understood. I definitely disagree with plenty of folks in the LRS group. 

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

shit happen up there. adding a simple layer of safety from sliding off the end of your rope cause you device falls to catch is pretty easy. iv slide to my knot twice one was the lever of the gri gri got held open by the rope in a fall and the other was a failure to catch the fall. know two others who almost slide off the end of their rope cause they didn’t have a back up knot and the device failed. one was stopped by the rope getting tangled around his leg and the other the little plastic tab on the rope end.

I’ll show you for free. 

Ok, but then a trailing stopper knot is sufficient and not a true backup knot like what Peter is talking about. Yann teaches to use trailing stopper knots, not backup knots. A backup knot is for in case you come completely unattached from your device, trailing stopper knots are for if your device fails to engage. The way Yann teaches things sounds totally adequate based on your concerns.